Author Topic: RRs biting  (Read 687 times)

Offline WyattRR

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RRs biting
« on: July 09, 2007, 09:23 PM »
okay-maybe i'm missing something. I'm so anti-BSL...my favorite breeds include dobes, GSDs, and rotts. I do realize that many people are attacked by pits, dobes, rotts, etc... But, i've never even HEARD of anyone being attacked/bitten by a RR. Am i way wrong?

Offline sarah yates

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RRs biting
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2007, 01:44 AM »
I actually have had a RR bite me. There was a thunderstorm and i was a guest on a farm in Natal and i was running into the farmhouse in the rain and lightening and the pack of ridgebacks was running with me (they all were familiar with me as i'd been at the farm for at least a day), as i reached the house i got a very smart bite on the back of my calf, which tuned into a lovely bruise. The explanation? it was the mother of the litter inside the house reminding me that i had better stay away from her pups. i have to say it's given me a healthy appreciation for a dog bite and this one didn't even break the skin! also, it made me realize that it's MY behavior that is important with respect to how dogs react. and that is something that many people don't understand. so i have much more respect for my dogs now (and RRs in general), i don't even think that bite was intended to stop me, only to warn me.
Sarah Yates
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Offline caro

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RRs biting
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2007, 07:21 AM »
There have been a couple of news stories in the last year or so involving a RR biting somebody.  One turned out not to be an RR at all but a Bull Mastiff, but still after the news report came out, the damage was done, even though it was corrected (in small print) after the fact.  Another involved an RR biting a jogger somewhere in the north of England.  Unfortunately, it made headlines and when I saw the report it was almost a full page in, I believe it was, the Daily Mail.  These sort of reports do immense harm to the perception of a breed.

Years ago I heard that RRs were being crossed with other breeds to produce what were called "ban dogs".  These dogs were used by drug dealers and criminals who would set them on the police to delay them so that they could escape. 

Unfortunately, I think some of the council estates in Dublin are not the safest places to live and this may well be why the City Council has decided to step in. 

It is unfortunate that it is breed specific.  It would almost be better if it were a ban on all dogs in public housing. 

I agree with Sarah, in general it is the way you act around an RR that can cause a bite.  I have had a couple but always it has been when the dog was in pain, or when I have been breaking up a fight.  One of mine bit a man who was delivering hay and thought it would be a short cut to climb a fence and cross the area of garden where my dog normally spent his days.  This was his territory and he saw this strange man climbing into his territory so he acted as an RR would when they see an intruder.  No real harm done, but it was enough to scare the delivery man.

I would always be very wary around a bitch with puppies.  Mine have always been extremely protective, and while I or my husband can do anything with the pups, I know that they aren't very happy when somebody new is near them. 

Caroline

Offline Kapani

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RRs biting
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2007, 07:57 AM »
I'm sorry but I don't think a dog should ever bite unless your life is in jeopardy.  Even if my house was broken into when I wasn't home I wouldn't want my dogs biting anyone.  Growling and barking yes but unless someone was attacking me my dogs better never bite.  My rotti was this way and I see no reason why my RR's can't be that way.  If some kids jump your fence and your dog bites them well you won't be able to blame it on the kids(in the eyes of the law or insurance companies) but it will be one more bite to BSL.   I realize dogs are individual beings and we cannot control every action or predict everything they do but I do think we should try and train for those scenerio's so it doesn't happen. JMO
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 08:10 AM by Kapani »
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Offline oscarsmom

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RRs biting
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2007, 08:48 AM »
I'm sorry but I don't think a dog should ever bite unless your life is in jeopardy... I realize dogs are individual beings and we cannot control every action or predict everything they do but I do think we should try and train for those scenerio's so it doesn't happen. JMO

I completely agree and it is 100% up to a dog's owner to train and socialize in order to raise a dog with both NO predisposition TO bite AND very good bite inhibition, in the event that unforeseen but not life threatening circumstances cause the dog to react with it's mouth... which does happen.

Unfortunately, all of this is followed by a little asterisk in my book that says: at the end of the day, a dog is still a dog (even with the best genes, raising and handling) and ANY dog CAN bite. So on top of all those preventative measures, it is ALSO up to the owner to maintain constant, responsible control, watchfulness and have a healthy respect for the very real possibility of an unpredictable situation - and they do exist, even for the best dogs.

*I still think BSL is a LOUSY way to make changes in the world of dog ownership. Came across this link the other day and I think it easily illustrates how devastatingly vague and misguided such laws are - very sad indeed:

http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/webapp/sitepages/search/results.asp?contentid=603291&catname=Editorial&type=search&search1=pit%20bull

~Natalya

Offline caro

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RRs biting
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2007, 09:50 AM »
In general I would agree with you about biting.  However, if I live in an isolated area and somebody comes onto my property without my knowing and without my invitation and the dog, who is by nature territorial, nips him then I can't blame the dog.  The intruder had no right to be there and the dog was merely protecting my property.  If my dog is contained behind a fence that is dog proof but not human proof, then it behoves the human not to invade that space.   The human who invaded his space knew very well that there was a dog there and there was a perfectly good path around the orchard which he could have taken rather than the short cut. 

If you have ever had to break up a fight, and if you have several dogs these are inevitable no matter how hard you try to avoid them, you would know that things happen in the heat of the moment that are regretted by everybody when things cool down.  Likewise, a dog in pain will do things that he wouldn't normally do.  A bitch with puppies will always protect her babies.  That is what she would do in the wild and that is a trait which makes her a good mother.  I have had two bitches who would protect their babies with their lives, and I had one who couldn't care less.  She would wander off and leave them to their own devices and would have to be coaxed back into the whelping box to feed them; her mothering instincts were awful.  Thankfully her daughter and granddaughter never inherited them.  In the wild the first bitch's pups would never have survived.  You cannot blame a bitch for taking care of her family.

Kapani, you have horses.  If somebody came into your stable when nobody was around, but your dogs were there, and he started to remove the tack from your tack room, what would you expect your dogs to do.  Wag their tails and smile at the thief.  "Come on in. Take what you want".  Or would you expect  your dogs to do what they could to prevent your property from being stolen?

There was a case recently in Richmond where somebody had a Rottie contained in their backyard behind a stockade fence and a gate.  A neighbor's toddler opened the gate and invaded the dog's yard.  The dog bit the toddler.  It went to court and in fact the judge did not blame the dog.  The toddler's parents were told that they should watch their child more carefully and the owner of the dog put a padlock on his gate. 

I know a lady who lives in S.A. and keeps a bunch of RR's on her property.  When she wanted to reduce the numbers, her family hit the roof because it was only the presence of the RRs that would keep them from being robbed of everything they had.

Even if the dog is "baying" the intruder, if the intruder tries to make a break for it, the dog will grab whatever it can to keep the intruder in place.

This is where the breed is divided.  Most RRs live in cities, in families, where it is of utmost important that they have a stable, kind temperament (sort of like the proverbial Golden Retriever!).  However, there are a number of RRs who still live on farms and still are being used as they were in the last century.  The problem comes when the farm dog has to be moved to the city.  This is where the human has to make a huge adjustment and help the dog adjust alongside him.  Think of the effect it will have on a dog who has spent it's early years having the run of a large property to suddenly have to wait to go out until his owner is ready to put a leash on him and walk him to the park.  These are dogs that are used to farm animals, tractors and other farm implements, but the sight of a baby carriage or a jogger is something totally alien.  That is a huge adjustment.

Long and short of this, we really have to be a bit more understanding than just to look at things as being black and white.  There are always circumstances that need to be examined carefully before condemning a dog because he bites somebody.  Things just aren't always black and white.  There are huge grey areas.

Caroline
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 10:00 AM by caro »

Offline mike

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2007, 10:18 AM »
From what i have seen from my friends Emmanouelas dogs (mine is still young) most of the RR have the ability to take action against intruders but they are not really lethal or dangerous. I agree with Caroline about the different reactions of dogs that live in farms of those that live in the cities and i also believe that it is different to have one dog than a pack of dogs. I believe that packs act more violently against an intruder than an individual dog. Emmanouella has a farm house with 8 RR. They are very friendly and nice. She told me that a year before a drunk guy jumped in and the dogs went for him. They stopped him and groweled at him but they didnt bite until he took a stick and hit the one of the pack. Then some of the others attacked and bit him . She and her husband heared the noise whent there and took him to the hospital where he told them the exact story. He wasnt a burglar but a stupid drunk guy.

Offline hewathe

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2007, 10:31 AM »
I completely agree with Caroline.

I have been bitten twice in my life, once by a golden retriever and once by a shih tzu. The golden retriever bit me when I was 8 and trying to pull her out from under my bed during a thunderstorm (she was TERRIFIED of thunder), and she bit my hand.  She was absolutely beside herself during storms, and once they ceased, would go back to her normal self as though nothing had ever happened.  She was dangerous during thunderstorms, but otherwise a wonderful dog.  If only my parents had been more dog-savvy at the time and committed themselves to working on the issue, maybe the incident would never have occurred. The shih tzu was a friend's dog who had just had a litter, and I went over to visit and got a bite in the butt at the door.  The owner's fault for not having the dog on a leash or contained or inviting me over if he was unable to do those things - protecting puppies is a mother's job. Dogs do things under stress, even the breeds reputed to have the sweetest temperaments of all.

I could never imagine Jenga biting me, but I know that under extreme stress, some dogs instinctively bite. I don't think it makes them dangerous - it just means that we have to know what puts our dogs under stress and be prepared, in addition to trying to help the dog become more accustomed to the stressor if it's going to be an event that reoccurs (thunder, nail clipping, visitors).

Anyway, as for intruders, I wouldn't want my dogs to bite someone until they were inside my home or attempting to come into my home. Digger offered me a great example of what I'd like my dogs to do on a night when we accidentally left our front door open and the police showed up to investigate a "robbery". I've probably told this story before, but Digger stood in the doorway and his barks/growls became increasingly loud as the officers approached - by the time they got to the porch, he was snarling and barking non-stop - but he NEVER let the door. Not one step. The police decided to call, we picked up, and came to the front door (can you believe we slept through it?)...and as soon as we said, "It's okay Digger!" He turned to a full body wag and let the officers in.  That moment illustrate exactly the temperament I think a dog should have. A warning - not an attack when it's not necessary...and then when reassured by his/her owners, acceptance of the stranger (not necessarily affection for, but acceptance of).








Offline Lekana

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2007, 03:32 PM »
<<Kapani, you have horses. >>

Another great example of experience versus first hand knowlege.  Thanks, Caroline. 

If everybody on this list remembers ONE thing it is just because it is YOUR experience TO DATE, doesn't mean something will never happen.  Things can change drastically when you acquire more than two or three dogs.  The whole "pack dynamic" is different. 

I can't say I've never owned a dog that bit another person.  THE most stable-temperamented dog I ever owned, highly titled in both conformation and performance events and whose temperament I wish I could 'bottle and sell' once bit somebody.  Because she was so temperamentally sound and performance oriented, I let her go with a lot of different people to build points in lure coursing (this was BEFORE there were a lot of ridgebacks competing, and she had already won all her titles). 

Well...one day, when the person she was with tried to let her out of her crate in the van...it was an older van with a space between the bumper and the vehicle...my bitch's rear leg slipped down between that space and got stuck.  She was in SEVERE pain, and people flocked to help her and the one brave soul that actually went in to LIFT her up to free her leg (a ridgeback person no less) got bit in the face by my dog only for the fact she was in severe pain and didn't know WHAT was going on.

Of course, when I heard of this later, I was all about paying medical bills, but the person that got bit totally understood WHY my bitch bit and no further mention was made....she knew my bitch enough to know it wasn't typical but simply due to the severe pain my bitch was in.

Similar experiences can be gleaned from the simple fact two males have never fought or two females have never fought...both scenarios I thought would never happen but the have.  When you speak of certain behavioral aspects...there IS never a NEVER.  You can go 20 years without incident, then suddenly have a problem. 

You are talking about LIVING beings.  I'm sure most of us can't predict the actions of our human neighbors, so we shouldn't be so quick to predict OR CONDEMN necessarily the actions of a non-human species without knowing all the facts.

JMO,
Shara

Offline Kapani

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2007, 05:51 PM »
In general I would agree with you about biting.  However, if I live in an isolated area and somebody comes onto my property without my knowing and without my invitation and the dog, who is by nature territorial, nips him then I can't blame the dog.  The intruder had no right to be there and the dog was merely protecting my property.  If my dog is contained behind a fence that is dog proof but not human proof, then it behoves the human not to invade that space.   The human who invaded his space knew very well that there was a dog there and there was a perfectly good path around the orchard which he could have taken rather than the short cut. 

If you have ever had to break up a fight, and if you have several dogs these are inevitable no matter how hard you try to avoid them, you would know that things happen in the heat of the moment that are regretted by everybody when things cool down.  Likewise, a dog in pain will do things that he wouldn't normally do.  A bitch with puppies will always protect her babies.  That is what she would do in the wild and that is a trait which makes her a good mother.  I have had two bitches who would protect their babies with their lives, and I had one who couldn't care less.  She would wander off and leave them to their own devices and would have to be coaxed back into the whelping box to feed them; her mothering instincts were awful.  Thankfully her daughter and granddaughter never inherited them.  In the wild the first bitch's pups would never have survived.  You cannot blame a bitch for taking care of her family. I've had to break up a fight between Cowboy and Kapani and I did not get bit probably because Kapanin was running from Cowboy. ;D  My female rotti was attacked by a malamute and I managed to not get bit thank god. 

Kapani, you have horses.  If somebody came into your stable when nobody was around, but your dogs were there, and he started to remove the tack from your tack room, what would you expect your dogs to do.  Wag their tails and smile at the thief.  "Come on in. Take what you want".  Or would you expect  your dogs to do what they could to prevent your property from being stolen?That is correct I would not want my dogs biting anyone over tack, bark and growl yes but like I said in my earlier post I realize dogs are individual beings and all the socialzation and training can go out the window if they decide to do something.[/u]
There was a case recently in Richmond where somebody had a Rottie contained in their backyard behind a stockade fence and a gate.  A neighbor's toddler opened the gate and invaded the dog's yard.  The dog bit the toddler.  It went to court and in fact the judge did not blame the dog.  The toddler's parents were told that they should watch their child more carefully and the owner of the dog put a padlock on his gate.  My rotti would never dream of biting someone just because they came in the backyard but then again I trained her for all kinds of kid scenerio's and I'm blessed in her 11 years she was always a perfect lady.

I know a lady who lives in S.A. and keeps a bunch of RR's on her property.  When she wanted to reduce the numbers, her family hit the roof because it was only the presence of the RRs that would keep them from being robbed of everything they had.I also have friends in S.A and you can hardly compare S.A. and what is going on there with the U.S. S.A is a pretty dangerous place right now I"ve been told by several S.A. friends.  When I went last year they almost scared me out of coming :D

Even if the dog is "baying" the intruder, if the intruder tries to make a break for it, the dog will grab whatever it can to keep the intruder in place.

This is where the breed is divided.  Most RRs live in cities, in families, where it is of utmost important that they have a stable, kind temperament (sort of like the proverbial Golden Retriever!).  However, there are a number of RRs who still live on farms and still are being used as they were in the last century.  The problem comes when the farm dog has to be moved to the city.  This is where the human has to make a huge adjustment and help the dog adjust alongside him.  Think of the effect it will have on a dog who has spent it's early years having the run of a large property to suddenly have to wait to go out until his owner is ready to put a leash on him and walk him to the park.  These are dogs that are used to farm animals, tractors and other farm implements, but the sight of a baby carriage or a jogger is something totally alien.  That is a huge adjustment.I grew up with dogs including spending much of my childhood on my aunts horse farm with GSD and they would never show agression unless someone in the family was threatened

Long and short of this, we really have to be a bit more understanding than just to look at things as being black and white.  There are always circumstances that need to be examined carefully before condemning a dog because he bites somebody.  Things just aren't always black and white.  There are huge grey areas.No one said there isn't grey areas there always is with aniamls but what I said was to make excuses that someone wandered on to your property therefore the dog was only protecting its turf is the wrong way to look at things.  If everyone felt like that it's no wonder dogs are showing up on ban lists with insurance companies.

Just to clarify I own three dogs two of which are male RR's. Of course it's JMO! I am assuming I don't have to have bred a litter to have an opinion on this subject LOL
Caroline
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 10:05 PM by Kapani »
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Offline Keeper

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2007, 10:02 PM »
<<Kapani, you have horses. >>

I didn't know you had horses Michelle, did you get them when you moved???
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Offline Kapani

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2007, 10:04 PM »
<<Kapani, you have horses. >>

I didn't know you had horses Michelle, did you get them when you moved???
Sandra

I've always had horses at least since I was 12ish such a drain on the pocket book..LOL
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Offline Rosebud

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2007, 10:20 PM »
I've had to break up a fight between Cowboy and Kapani and I did not get bit probably because Kapanin was running from Cowboy.   My female rotti was attacked by a malamute and I managed to not get bit thank god.

Consider yourself very lucky. Dog fights are not something to mess with, and DEFINATELY not something to try and break up with just your hands. I have not had any 'real' issues with dog fights, but I have witnessed them and Michelle, if your dogs did not come away with puncture wounds, they were not serious about fighting, they were just getting sideways with each other. When a dog gets 'serious' about fighting ANYTHING is a target. I was helping someone introduce two intact males. I had the new male and she had her male. Her male decided that this new guy had to go and he lunged, the next thing we knew he was trying everything in his might to get out of the lead and I was trying to get the new guy back. She reached down to get back hold of his collar and ended up gitting bit on her thigh. Well of course she knew they would have to be kept separate.

Well one day I was over visiting and both boys ended up being accidentally let out in the yard at the same time. There was nothing that was going to separate them. Tiki torches, sticks, you name it. And you better believe that NONE of us (there was 3 people there) even thought about going in and attempting to grab collars. We finally managed to get them separated long enough to get a hold of them but it took a garden hose on full stream aimed at their faces.


No one said there isn't grey areas there always is with aniamls but what I said was to make excuses that someone wandered on to your property therefore the dog was only protecting its turf is the wrong way to look at things.  If everyone felt like that it's no wonder dogs are showing up on ban lists with insurance companies.

I just don't see how you can say that people are 'making excuses' for their dogs biting intruders to their property. Yes, ideally the dog will stand guard and keep the intruder at bay until you arrive, but seriously if the dog does bite, there is no 'making excuses' the fact is the intruder shouldn't have been there and the dog did what it saw as fit. Does it make the dog's decision correct, well not necessarily, that depends on what the intruders' intent was and the level of socialization the dog received. But I'm sorry just because your dog is socialized in every possible situation where children could be involved is not insurance that they will not bite. To even entertain the thought that dogs should be expected to ALWAYS inhibit a bite is just simply asking for trouble.
Michelle C

Nothing makes a day more worth it than coming home to a pack of wagging RR's and their kisses......but watch out for those tails they'll get 'cha every time.

Offline Kapani

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2007, 10:30 PM »
Yes Michelle there were puncture wounds in both examples but Cowboy knows who the boss is now because I played alpha bitch like in the wild and got in his Sh*t like tomorrow.  I also neutered Kapani so the problem is resolved.

I will stand by my opinion, dogs should not be biting people just because they came on your property.  I would suggest people do what they can to socialize their dogs so this doesn't happen or you can be assured our dogs will be on the insurance companies banned list...Quote from Caroline, "In general I would agree with you about biting.  However, if I live in an isolated area and somebody comes onto my property without my knowing and without my invitation and the dog, who is by nature territorial, nips him then I can't blame the dog.  The intruder had no right to be there and the dog was merely protecting my property." In my opinion this is condoning bad behavior...don't get me wrong I know it could happen with one of my dogs but I try and do things to prevent it buy socializing them, having people come into my back yard so they get used to it.  It won't be long before our dogs are on the banned list if people think it's ok that a dog bites someone that comes on their property.  Again JMO!!! To make this crystal clear I realize you can't control an animal at all times and they may do things you never thought they would,what I have a problem with is people thinking it's ok.  This is how little children are killed by dogs that are territorial.  I don't think we should shrug our shoulders and say oh he's protective of his turf I say train him not to be so protective do everything in your power to prevent a bite or an attack.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 10:38 PM by Kapani »
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Offline Kapani

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2007, 08:13 AM »
I see the smite fairy is back...hee hee we can all play that game :D
Michelle A.

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