Author Topic: RRs biting  (Read 687 times)

Offline WyattRR

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RRs biting
« on: July 09, 2007, 09:23 PM »
okay-maybe i'm missing something. I'm so anti-BSL...my favorite breeds include dobes, GSDs, and rotts. I do realize that many people are attacked by pits, dobes, rotts, etc... But, i've never even HEARD of anyone being attacked/bitten by a RR. Am i way wrong?

Offline sarah yates

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RRs biting
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2007, 01:44 AM »
I actually have had a RR bite me. There was a thunderstorm and i was a guest on a farm in Natal and i was running into the farmhouse in the rain and lightening and the pack of ridgebacks was running with me (they all were familiar with me as i'd been at the farm for at least a day), as i reached the house i got a very smart bite on the back of my calf, which tuned into a lovely bruise. The explanation? it was the mother of the litter inside the house reminding me that i had better stay away from her pups. i have to say it's given me a healthy appreciation for a dog bite and this one didn't even break the skin! also, it made me realize that it's MY behavior that is important with respect to how dogs react. and that is something that many people don't understand. so i have much more respect for my dogs now (and RRs in general), i don't even think that bite was intended to stop me, only to warn me.
Sarah Yates
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Offline caro

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RRs biting
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2007, 07:21 AM »
There have been a couple of news stories in the last year or so involving a RR biting somebody.  One turned out not to be an RR at all but a Bull Mastiff, but still after the news report came out, the damage was done, even though it was corrected (in small print) after the fact.  Another involved an RR biting a jogger somewhere in the north of England.  Unfortunately, it made headlines and when I saw the report it was almost a full page in, I believe it was, the Daily Mail.  These sort of reports do immense harm to the perception of a breed.

Years ago I heard that RRs were being crossed with other breeds to produce what were called "ban dogs".  These dogs were used by drug dealers and criminals who would set them on the police to delay them so that they could escape. 

Unfortunately, I think some of the council estates in Dublin are not the safest places to live and this may well be why the City Council has decided to step in. 

It is unfortunate that it is breed specific.  It would almost be better if it were a ban on all dogs in public housing. 

I agree with Sarah, in general it is the way you act around an RR that can cause a bite.  I have had a couple but always it has been when the dog was in pain, or when I have been breaking up a fight.  One of mine bit a man who was delivering hay and thought it would be a short cut to climb a fence and cross the area of garden where my dog normally spent his days.  This was his territory and he saw this strange man climbing into his territory so he acted as an RR would when they see an intruder.  No real harm done, but it was enough to scare the delivery man.

I would always be very wary around a bitch with puppies.  Mine have always been extremely protective, and while I or my husband can do anything with the pups, I know that they aren't very happy when somebody new is near them. 

Caroline

Offline Kapani

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RRs biting
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2007, 07:57 AM »
I'm sorry but I don't think a dog should ever bite unless your life is in jeopardy.  Even if my house was broken into when I wasn't home I wouldn't want my dogs biting anyone.  Growling and barking yes but unless someone was attacking me my dogs better never bite.  My rotti was this way and I see no reason why my RR's can't be that way.  If some kids jump your fence and your dog bites them well you won't be able to blame it on the kids(in the eyes of the law or insurance companies) but it will be one more bite to BSL.   I realize dogs are individual beings and we cannot control every action or predict everything they do but I do think we should try and train for those scenerio's so it doesn't happen. JMO
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 08:10 AM by Kapani »
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Offline oscarsmom

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RRs biting
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2007, 08:48 AM »
I'm sorry but I don't think a dog should ever bite unless your life is in jeopardy... I realize dogs are individual beings and we cannot control every action or predict everything they do but I do think we should try and train for those scenerio's so it doesn't happen. JMO

I completely agree and it is 100% up to a dog's owner to train and socialize in order to raise a dog with both NO predisposition TO bite AND very good bite inhibition, in the event that unforeseen but not life threatening circumstances cause the dog to react with it's mouth... which does happen.

Unfortunately, all of this is followed by a little asterisk in my book that says: at the end of the day, a dog is still a dog (even with the best genes, raising and handling) and ANY dog CAN bite. So on top of all those preventative measures, it is ALSO up to the owner to maintain constant, responsible control, watchfulness and have a healthy respect for the very real possibility of an unpredictable situation - and they do exist, even for the best dogs.

*I still think BSL is a LOUSY way to make changes in the world of dog ownership. Came across this link the other day and I think it easily illustrates how devastatingly vague and misguided such laws are - very sad indeed:

http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/webapp/sitepages/search/results.asp?contentid=603291&catname=Editorial&type=search&search1=pit%20bull

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Offline caro

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RRs biting
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2007, 09:50 AM »
In general I would agree with you about biting.  However, if I live in an isolated area and somebody comes onto my property without my knowing and without my invitation and the dog, who is by nature territorial, nips him then I can't blame the dog.  The intruder had no right to be there and the dog was merely protecting my property.  If my dog is contained behind a fence that is dog proof but not human proof, then it behoves the human not to invade that space.   The human who invaded his space knew very well that there was a dog there and there was a perfectly good path around the orchard which he could have taken rather than the short cut. 

If you have ever had to break up a fight, and if you have several dogs these are inevitable no matter how hard you try to avoid them, you would know that things happen in the heat of the moment that are regretted by everybody when things cool down.  Likewise, a dog in pain will do things that he wouldn't normally do.  A bitch with puppies will always protect her babies.  That is what she would do in the wild and that is a trait which makes her a good mother.  I have had two bitches who would protect their babies with their lives, and I had one who couldn't care less.  She would wander off and leave them to their own devices and would have to be coaxed back into the whelping box to feed them; her mothering instincts were awful.  Thankfully her daughter and granddaughter never inherited them.  In the wild the first bitch's pups would never have survived.  You cannot blame a bitch for taking care of her family.

Kapani, you have horses.  If somebody came into your stable when nobody was around, but your dogs were there, and he started to remove the tack from your tack room, what would you expect your dogs to do.  Wag their tails and smile at the thief.  "Come on in. Take what you want".  Or would you expect  your dogs to do what they could to prevent your property from being stolen?

There was a case recently in Richmond where somebody had a Rottie contained in their backyard behind a stockade fence and a gate.  A neighbor's toddler opened the gate and invaded the dog's yard.  The dog bit the toddler.  It went to court and in fact the judge did not blame the dog.  The toddler's parents were told that they should watch their child more carefully and the owner of the dog put a padlock on his gate. 

I know a lady who lives in S.A. and keeps a bunch of RR's on her property.  When she wanted to reduce the numbers, her family hit the roof because it was only the presence of the RRs that would keep them from being robbed of everything they had.

Even if the dog is "baying" the intruder, if the intruder tries to make a break for it, the dog will grab whatever it can to keep the intruder in place.

This is where the breed is divided.  Most RRs live in cities, in families, where it is of utmost important that they have a stable, kind temperament (sort of like the proverbial Golden Retriever!).  However, there are a number of RRs who still live on farms and still are being used as they were in the last century.  The problem comes when the farm dog has to be moved to the city.  This is where the human has to make a huge adjustment and help the dog adjust alongside him.  Think of the effect it will have on a dog who has spent it's early years having the run of a large property to suddenly have to wait to go out until his owner is ready to put a leash on him and walk him to the park.  These are dogs that are used to farm animals, tractors and other farm implements, but the sight of a baby carriage or a jogger is something totally alien.  That is a huge adjustment.

Long and short of this, we really have to be a bit more understanding than just to look at things as being black and white.  There are always circumstances that need to be examined carefully before condemning a dog because he bites somebody.  Things just aren't always black and white.  There are huge grey areas.

Caroline
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 10:00 AM by caro »

Offline mike

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2007, 10:18 AM »
From what i have seen from my friends Emmanouelas dogs (mine is still young) most of the RR have the ability to take action against intruders but they are not really lethal or dangerous. I agree with Caroline about the different reactions of dogs that live in farms of those that live in the cities and i also believe that it is different to have one dog than a pack of dogs. I believe that packs act more violently against an intruder than an individual dog. Emmanouella has a farm house with 8 RR. They are very friendly and nice. She told me that a year before a drunk guy jumped in and the dogs went for him. They stopped him and groweled at him but they didnt bite until he took a stick and hit the one of the pack. Then some of the others attacked and bit him . She and her husband heared the noise whent there and took him to the hospital where he told them the exact story. He wasnt a burglar but a stupid drunk guy.

Offline hewathe

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2007, 10:31 AM »
I completely agree with Caroline.

I have been bitten twice in my life, once by a golden retriever and once by a shih tzu. The golden retriever bit me when I was 8 and trying to pull her out from under my bed during a thunderstorm (she was TERRIFIED of thunder), and she bit my hand.  She was absolutely beside herself during storms, and once they ceased, would go back to her normal self as though nothing had ever happened.  She was dangerous during thunderstorms, but otherwise a wonderful dog.  If only my parents had been more dog-savvy at the time and committed themselves to working on the issue, maybe the incident would never have occurred. The shih tzu was a friend's dog who had just had a litter, and I went over to visit and got a bite in the butt at the door.  The owner's fault for not having the dog on a leash or contained or inviting me over if he was unable to do those things - protecting puppies is a mother's job. Dogs do things under stress, even the breeds reputed to have the sweetest temperaments of all.

I could never imagine Jenga biting me, but I know that under extreme stress, some dogs instinctively bite. I don't think it makes them dangerous - it just means that we have to know what puts our dogs under stress and be prepared, in addition to trying to help the dog become more accustomed to the stressor if it's going to be an event that reoccurs (thunder, nail clipping, visitors).

Anyway, as for intruders, I wouldn't want my dogs to bite someone until they were inside my home or attempting to come into my home. Digger offered me a great example of what I'd like my dogs to do on a night when we accidentally left our front door open and the police showed up to investigate a "robbery". I've probably told this story before, but Digger stood in the doorway and his barks/growls became increasingly loud as the officers approached - by the time they got to the porch, he was snarling and barking non-stop - but he NEVER let the door. Not one step. The police decided to call, we picked up, and came to the front door (can you believe we slept through it?)...and as soon as we said, "It's okay Digger!" He turned to a full body wag and let the officers in.  That moment illustrate exactly the temperament I think a dog should have. A warning - not an attack when it's not necessary...and then when reassured by his/her owners, acceptance of the stranger (not necessarily affection for, but acceptance of).








Offline Lekana

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2007, 03:32 PM »
<<Kapani, you have horses. >>

Another great example of experience versus first hand knowlege.  Thanks, Caroline. 

If everybody on this list remembers ONE thing it is just because it is YOUR experience TO DATE, doesn't mean something will never happen.  Things can change drastically when you acquire more than two or three dogs.  The whole "pack dynamic" is different. 

I can't say I've never owned a dog that bit another person.  THE most stable-temperamented dog I ever owned, highly titled in both conformation and performance events and whose temperament I wish I could 'bottle and sell' once bit somebody.  Because she was so temperamentally sound and performance oriented, I let her go with a lot of different people to build points in lure coursing (this was BEFORE there were a lot of ridgebacks competing, and she had already won all her titles). 

Well...one day, when the person she was with tried to let her out of her crate in the van...it was an older van with a space between the bumper and the vehicle...my bitch's rear leg slipped down between that space and got stuck.  She was in SEVERE pain, and people flocked to help her and the one brave soul that actually went in to LIFT her up to free her leg (a ridgeback person no less) got bit in the face by my dog only for the fact she was in severe pain and didn't know WHAT was going on.

Of course, when I heard of this later, I was all about paying medical bills, but the person that got bit totally understood WHY my bitch bit and no further mention was made....she knew my bitch enough to know it wasn't typical but simply due to the severe pain my bitch was in.

Similar experiences can be gleaned from the simple fact two males have never fought or two females have never fought...both scenarios I thought would never happen but the have.  When you speak of certain behavioral aspects...there IS never a NEVER.  You can go 20 years without incident, then suddenly have a problem. 

You are talking about LIVING beings.  I'm sure most of us can't predict the actions of our human neighbors, so we shouldn't be so quick to predict OR CONDEMN necessarily the actions of a non-human species without knowing all the facts.

JMO,
Shara

Offline Kapani

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2007, 05:51 PM »
In general I would agree with you about biting.  However, if I live in an isolated area and somebody comes onto my property without my knowing and without my invitation and the dog, who is by nature territorial, nips him then I can't blame the dog.  The intruder had no right to be there and the dog was merely protecting my property.  If my dog is contained behind a fence that is dog proof but not human proof, then it behoves the human not to invade that space.   The human who invaded his space knew very well that there was a dog there and there was a perfectly good path around the orchard which he could have taken rather than the short cut. 

If you have ever had to break up a fight, and if you have several dogs these are inevitable no matter how hard you try to avoid them, you would know that things happen in the heat of the moment that are regretted by everybody when things cool down.  Likewise, a dog in pain will do things that he wouldn't normally do.  A bitch with puppies will always protect her babies.  That is what she would do in the wild and that is a trait which makes her a good mother.  I have had two bitches who would protect their babies with their lives, and I had one who couldn't care less.  She would wander off and leave them to their own devices and would have to be coaxed back into the whelping box to feed them; her mothering instincts were awful.  Thankfully her daughter and granddaughter never inherited them.  In the wild the first bitch's pups would never have survived.  You cannot blame a bitch for taking care of her family. I've had to break up a fight between Cowboy and Kapani and I did not get bit probably because Kapanin was running from Cowboy. ;D  My female rotti was attacked by a malamute and I managed to not get bit thank god. 

Kapani, you have horses.  If somebody came into your stable when nobody was around, but your dogs were there, and he started to remove the tack from your tack room, what would you expect your dogs to do.  Wag their tails and smile at the thief.  "Come on in. Take what you want".  Or would you expect  your dogs to do what they could to prevent your property from being stolen?That is correct I would not want my dogs biting anyone over tack, bark and growl yes but like I said in my earlier post I realize dogs are individual beings and all the socialzation and training can go out the window if they decide to do something.[/u]
There was a case recently in Richmond where somebody had a Rottie contained in their backyard behind a stockade fence and a gate.  A neighbor's toddler opened the gate and invaded the dog's yard.  The dog bit the toddler.  It went to court and in fact the judge did not blame the dog.  The toddler's parents were told that they should watch their child more carefully and the owner of the dog put a padlock on his gate.  My rotti would never dream of biting someone just because they came in the backyard but then again I trained her for all kinds of kid scenerio's and I'm blessed in her 11 years she was always a perfect lady.

I know a lady who lives in S.A. and keeps a bunch of RR's on her property.  When she wanted to reduce the numbers, her family hit the roof because it was only the presence of the RRs that would keep them from being robbed of everything they had.I also have friends in S.A and you can hardly compare S.A. and what is going on there with the U.S. S.A is a pretty dangerous place right now I"ve been told by several S.A. friends.  When I went last year they almost scared me out of coming :D

Even if the dog is "baying" the intruder, if the intruder tries to make a break for it, the dog will grab whatever it can to keep the intruder in place.

This is where the breed is divided.  Most RRs live in cities, in families, where it is of utmost important that they have a stable, kind temperament (sort of like the proverbial Golden Retriever!).  However, there are a number of RRs who still live on farms and still are being used as they were in the last century.  The problem comes when the farm dog has to be moved to the city.  This is where the human has to make a huge adjustment and help the dog adjust alongside him.  Think of the effect it will have on a dog who has spent it's early years having the run of a large property to suddenly have to wait to go out until his owner is ready to put a leash on him and walk him to the park.  These are dogs that are used to farm animals, tractors and other farm implements, but the sight of a baby carriage or a jogger is something totally alien.  That is a huge adjustment.I grew up with dogs including spending much of my childhood on my aunts horse farm with GSD and they would never show agression unless someone in the family was threatened

Long and short of this, we really have to be a bit more understanding than just to look at things as being black and white.  There are always circumstances that need to be examined carefully before condemning a dog because he bites somebody.  Things just aren't always black and white.  There are huge grey areas.No one said there isn't grey areas there always is with aniamls but what I said was to make excuses that someone wandered on to your property therefore the dog was only protecting its turf is the wrong way to look at things.  If everyone felt like that it's no wonder dogs are showing up on ban lists with insurance companies.

Just to clarify I own three dogs two of which are male RR's. Of course it's JMO! I am assuming I don't have to have bred a litter to have an opinion on this subject LOL
Caroline
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 10:05 PM by Kapani »
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Offline Keeper

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2007, 10:02 PM »
<<Kapani, you have horses. >>

I didn't know you had horses Michelle, did you get them when you moved???
Sandra
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Offline Kapani

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2007, 10:04 PM »
<<Kapani, you have horses. >>

I didn't know you had horses Michelle, did you get them when you moved???
Sandra

I've always had horses at least since I was 12ish such a drain on the pocket book..LOL
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Offline Rosebud

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2007, 10:20 PM »
I've had to break up a fight between Cowboy and Kapani and I did not get bit probably because Kapanin was running from Cowboy.   My female rotti was attacked by a malamute and I managed to not get bit thank god.

Consider yourself very lucky. Dog fights are not something to mess with, and DEFINATELY not something to try and break up with just your hands. I have not had any 'real' issues with dog fights, but I have witnessed them and Michelle, if your dogs did not come away with puncture wounds, they were not serious about fighting, they were just getting sideways with each other. When a dog gets 'serious' about fighting ANYTHING is a target. I was helping someone introduce two intact males. I had the new male and she had her male. Her male decided that this new guy had to go and he lunged, the next thing we knew he was trying everything in his might to get out of the lead and I was trying to get the new guy back. She reached down to get back hold of his collar and ended up gitting bit on her thigh. Well of course she knew they would have to be kept separate.

Well one day I was over visiting and both boys ended up being accidentally let out in the yard at the same time. There was nothing that was going to separate them. Tiki torches, sticks, you name it. And you better believe that NONE of us (there was 3 people there) even thought about going in and attempting to grab collars. We finally managed to get them separated long enough to get a hold of them but it took a garden hose on full stream aimed at their faces.


No one said there isn't grey areas there always is with aniamls but what I said was to make excuses that someone wandered on to your property therefore the dog was only protecting its turf is the wrong way to look at things.  If everyone felt like that it's no wonder dogs are showing up on ban lists with insurance companies.

I just don't see how you can say that people are 'making excuses' for their dogs biting intruders to their property. Yes, ideally the dog will stand guard and keep the intruder at bay until you arrive, but seriously if the dog does bite, there is no 'making excuses' the fact is the intruder shouldn't have been there and the dog did what it saw as fit. Does it make the dog's decision correct, well not necessarily, that depends on what the intruders' intent was and the level of socialization the dog received. But I'm sorry just because your dog is socialized in every possible situation where children could be involved is not insurance that they will not bite. To even entertain the thought that dogs should be expected to ALWAYS inhibit a bite is just simply asking for trouble.
Michelle C

Nothing makes a day more worth it than coming home to a pack of wagging RR's and their kisses......but watch out for those tails they'll get 'cha every time.

Offline Kapani

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2007, 10:30 PM »
Yes Michelle there were puncture wounds in both examples but Cowboy knows who the boss is now because I played alpha bitch like in the wild and got in his Sh*t like tomorrow.  I also neutered Kapani so the problem is resolved.

I will stand by my opinion, dogs should not be biting people just because they came on your property.  I would suggest people do what they can to socialize their dogs so this doesn't happen or you can be assured our dogs will be on the insurance companies banned list...Quote from Caroline, "In general I would agree with you about biting.  However, if I live in an isolated area and somebody comes onto my property without my knowing and without my invitation and the dog, who is by nature territorial, nips him then I can't blame the dog.  The intruder had no right to be there and the dog was merely protecting my property." In my opinion this is condoning bad behavior...don't get me wrong I know it could happen with one of my dogs but I try and do things to prevent it buy socializing them, having people come into my back yard so they get used to it.  It won't be long before our dogs are on the banned list if people think it's ok that a dog bites someone that comes on their property.  Again JMO!!! To make this crystal clear I realize you can't control an animal at all times and they may do things you never thought they would,what I have a problem with is people thinking it's ok.  This is how little children are killed by dogs that are territorial.  I don't think we should shrug our shoulders and say oh he's protective of his turf I say train him not to be so protective do everything in your power to prevent a bite or an attack.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 10:38 PM by Kapani »
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Offline Kapani

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2007, 08:13 AM »
I see the smite fairy is back...hee hee we can all play that game :D
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Offline caro

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2007, 09:32 AM »
Having been offline since last evening, you can't blame me for being the "smite fairy"!!

Just one point, we have a perfectly straightforward way of approaching the house and if somebody wants to come down the driveway and knock on the door the dogs may bark, but there will be no "biting".  If somebody tries to cut through the orchard to the backside of the house, then their intentions may well be dishonest and since we often leave the doors to the house unlocked, it is nice to know that there is a deterrent to somebody sneaking around and surprising me with a gun in my back!   Unfortunately, while some areas of the country may be safe, others are not, and living within easy driving distance of an urban area which was once known as the murder capital of the US, one is always glad to have an extra layer of security, particularly when one's neighbors are a half mile away.

Caroline

Offline Kapani

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2007, 09:40 AM »
Having been offline since last evening, you can't blame me for being the "smite fairy"!!

Just one point, we have a perfectly straightforward way of approaching the house and if somebody wants to come down the driveway and knock on the door the dogs may bark, but there will be no "biting".  If somebody tries to cut through the orchard to the backside of the house, then their intentions may well be dishonest and since we often leave the doors to the house unlocked, it is nice to know that there is a deterrent to somebody sneaking around and surprising me with a gun in my back!   Unfortunately, while some areas of the country may be safe, others are not, and living within easy driving distance of an urban area which was once known as the murder capital of the US, one is always glad to have an extra layer of security, particularly when one's neighbors are a half mile away.

Caroline

You are great Caroline no worries I don't think you are the smite fairy:)

 I want my dogs to bark and growl and so far both my RR's and my Rotti showed incredible intuition so I'm hoping that continues. 
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Offline oscarsmom

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2007, 10:08 AM »
I don't think we should shrug our shoulders and say oh he's protective of his turf I say train him not to be so protective do everything in your power to prevent a bite or an attack.

As Caroline pointed out, there are nice areas to live, and not so nice areas to live. One of the great benefits of having a big dog (vicious or not) is that it acts as a natural, visual deterant for unsavory people. I happen to think it's just fine if a dog displays SOME protective behavior, like barking, posturing, and even charging - though I ALSO agree with Michele that even watchful, protection inclined dogs should be taught NOT to bite first and ask questions later, nor ever allowed to do so inappropriately without correction. Some dogs have more of a fighting personality, so this may be harder to instill...

Our male has always been very protective of us and our house and car, though he has NEVER, and I don't think WOULD ever bite a person, unless it was REALLY serious. He'd take out a dangerous dog in a heartbeat, but a PERSON would have to be literally trying to do me close physical harm for his teeth to come out. I like to think we helped teach him that, but it may just be his personality. That said, on a few occassions where he was startled by someone coming into our house unannounced (not threatening), instead of lunging and biting, he literally just charged into them - physically pushing them back - all while barking of course. His protective instincts told him to react, but he used only enough force as was necessary to make his point. He didn't bite, or even snarl or bare his teeth. And of course, once we called him off, he was fine.

I think these dogs are really smart. They're also very conservative and calculated when it comes to their reactions to things. I'm sure there are nasty RRs out there that have been ALLOWED to display aggression, in the name of protection, but for the rest of us and our stable ridgie companions, the natural protective behavior of this breed, when thoughtfully molded into a well socialized beast, can be quite useful and easily free of serious danger.

JMO
~Natalya

Offline Rosebud

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2007, 10:55 AM »
I completely agree that a dog should be taught to inhibit a bite. I just think that to expect a dog to not EVER bite is asking for trouble and that just because a dog has never bitten anyone and has been extensively socialized is not a guarantee that it won't. So while yes breeders and owners need to be diligent in proper socialization, society also needs to be educated that it IS afterall a dog and their means of self defense and protection should be respected.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 11:00 AM by Rosebud »
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Offline Kapani

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2007, 11:13 AM »
I completely agree that a dog should be taught to inhibit a bite. I just think that to expect a dog to not EVER bite is asking for trouble and that just because a dog has never bitten anyone and has been extensively socialized is not a guarantee that it won't. So while yes breeders and owners need to be diligent in proper socialization, society also needs to be educated that it IS afterall a dog and their means of self defense and protection should be respected.

Who is expecting a dog to not EVER bite?? I think everyone has stated several times these are individual beings that you cannot control at all times.. Society is not going to be educated to the extent you want so if we want to keep our breed off the "lists" we all need to take the responsibility to do everything we can.  I try to expose all of my dogs to many things so they can react in a calm manner and use their incredible instincts that this breed has.  I'm aware this may fail but if it does I know I did a great deal to prevent it.
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Offline Rosebud

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2007, 11:32 AM »
Who is expecting a dog to not EVER bite??

I'm sorry but I don't think a dog should ever bite unless your life is in jeopardy.  Even if my house was broken into when I wasn't home I wouldn't want my dogs biting anyone.  Growling and barking yes but unless someone was attacking me my dogs better never bite.  My rotti was this way and I see no reason why my RR's can't be that way.  If some kids jump your fence and your dog bites them well you won't be able to blame it on the kids(in the eyes of the law or insurance companies) but it will be one more bite to BSL.   I realize dogs are individual beings and we cannot control every action or predict everything they do but I do think we should try and train for those scenerio's so it doesn't happen. JMO

 ???  You did. Well you did give ONE exception.

Michelle, my point is that it's a DOG and while yes owners need to encourage them to inhibit their INSTINCT to bite, society also needs to be educated that it is an INSTINCT.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 11:38 AM by Rosebud »
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Offline Kapani

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2007, 11:41 AM »
???  You did. Well you did give ONE exception.


I guess you didn't read my post Michelle ::)

In my opinion this is condoning bad behavior...don't get me wrong I know it could happen with one of my dogs but I try and do things to prevent it buy socializing them, having people come into my back yard so they get used to it.  It won't be long before our dogs are on the banned list if people think it's ok that a dog bites someone that comes on their property.  Again JMO!!! To make this crystal clear I realize you can't control an animal at all times and they may do things you never thought they would,what I have a problem with is people thinking it's ok.  This is how little children are killed by dogs that are territorial.  I don't think we should shrug our shoulders and say oh he's protective of his turf I say train him not to be so protective do everything in your power to prevent a bite or an attack

smite smite smite...hee hee
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Offline ShellyK

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2007, 11:48 AM »
My two cents on this topic...which has always been one that I probably hold too closely...

ALL dogs could/might/will bite someone. In my opinion, they are animals and they don't think like we do (not even close.)
I believe in nearly all the things posted here...socialization, bite inhibition, training, etc. We do everything we can to keep bites from happening. But, take a dog that has been perfectly trained, socialized, etc...and I believe it could/might/WILL bite someone if the 'right' (wrong) situation occurs.
It is not up to the dog to determine whether a situation is 'right/wrong.' It is our responsibility as the owners. We should do everything we can to keep the wrong situations from happening and hope that if/when we slip and the situation does happen, that all our training/socializing/bite inhibition comes into play that one time and the dog doesn't bite.
It makes me nervous when I hear people say "My dog will/would never bite anyone." I can't tell you that I will never lose my temper...and I have total control of that! To say that this big strong dog(no matter how much we love them) will 'never' do anything...that's scary stuff.
Again...this is just my two cents...

~Shelly K.

Offline oscarsmom

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2007, 12:02 PM »
It makes me nervous when I hear people say "My dog will/would never bite anyone." I can't tell you that I will never lose my temper...and I have total control of that! To say that this big strong dog(no matter how much we love them) will 'never' do anything...that's scary stuff.
Again...this is just my two cents...

~Shelly K.

Shely, I hope I didn't come off as sounding like I don't think my dog *could* ever bite :-[ sorry if I did - I know him well enough that I think he's not so inclined, but I'm not naive enough to think it's impossible, which is why I'm a very watchful owner and if I see him getting uncomfortable, anytime, anywhere, I'll remove him from the situation. Better safe than sorry. What I've seen of his "protective" traits makes me feel pretty comfortable that he wont bite on a whim (and I personally have no problem with him actually going after a real intruder or person who has proven they are dangerous) but of course, he's a dog, and he does have a lot of big teeth :)

I think we're all pretty much saying the same thing here, with some minor differences in personal style regarding training and socialization. From what I've gathered about everyone here so far, none of us underestimate for a minute what our dogs are capable of, and we train them diligently with this in mind. No one can infinitely rule out nasty accidents of ANY kind, but we can, and do, prepare for them. I hope ;)

~Natalya

Offline Kapani

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2007, 12:13 PM »
My two cents on this topic...which has always been one that I probably hold too closely...

ALL dogs could/might/will bite someone. In my opinion, they are animals and they don't think like we do (not even close.)
I believe in nearly all the things posted here...socialization, bite inhibition, training, etc. We do everything we can to keep bites from happening. But, take a dog that has been perfectly trained, socialized, etc...and I believe it could/might/WILL bite someone if the 'right' (wrong) situation occurs.
It is not up to the dog to determine whether a situation is 'right/wrong.' It is our responsibility as the owners. We should do everything we can to keep the wrong situations from happening and hope that if/when we slip and the situation does happen, that all our training/socializing/bite inhibition comes into play that one time and the dog doesn't bite.
It makes me nervous when I hear people say "My dog will/would never bite anyone." I can't tell you that I will never lose my temper...and I have total control of that! To say that this big strong dog(no matter how much we love them) will 'never' do anything...that's scary stuff.
Again...this is just my two cents...

~Shelly K.

Shelly where did anyone say "My dog will/would never bite anyone." I often wonder if people read something and only see what they want to see?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 12:22 PM by Kapani »
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Offline ShellyK

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2007, 12:18 PM »
See? I do hold this topic too closely!  ::)

My response was more a general one...I think we've discussed this topic or one similar to it before...and I just get frustrated by dog owners (in general) who seem to think their dog is a saint and will/would 'never' do something.

No offense/finger pointing or anything intended to anyone and I apologize that I came across that way...  :-[

Shelly K.

Offline melissap

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2007, 12:54 PM »
Hi to all,

this was a wonderful post and thanks for all of the discussion, I of course also have opinions on this matter, but I think most of which are very similar to others. I do not think it is necessarily breed specific; I think many breeds and or indivisual dogs would take on a real intruder; but there should be no reason that a well socialized and well tempermented dog should give more than a warning bite and I also beleive that most intruders would be quickly headed out rather than stick around with such a resounding bark and large dog in the midst of their robbery and even in that case, I would hope for a dog to have a strong ability to descern from a person walking through the yard, and a robber! There are cases in which the person interacting with any said dog may envoke or contribute to a bite, but ultimately - it is the owners responsibility to keep a close eye!

Melissa P
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Offline shodyL

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2007, 06:29 PM »
I am raising my first ridgeback, a 5 mo. old male.  One of the reasons I chose a ridgeback is for their protectiveness.  I have some personal safety issues I am dealing with and thought a dog would be a good way to increase my safety.  I have other options available for my self protection, but none will help me if the intruder gets in my house and I don't hear them.  I also want my dog to not be quick to bite but lean towords the opinion that if someone is coming over my fence, they get what they deserve.  I haven't decided yet if I will train him to let strangers come through the gate, this could be opening up an avenue for this person getting in my yard and house my dog thinking it is OK.  I have been told that these dogs are good thinkers and can figure out for themselves what is needed in most situations.  I am focusing on obedience training, he is young but already starting to be protective of the house and yard.
Shody    ---My Two Babies--Leonidas & Meile!---

Offline oscarsmom

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2007, 06:52 PM »
I've weighed in on this topic already, but I wanted to ask other people's experiences as to what their RRs do when they DON'T bite, but feel the need to do SOMETHING. I've found that Oscar is very good at using his body to physically push people out of the way. He has on a few occassions also jumped up and pushed someone (once it was me! :o long story...) with his front feet as well (not the 'jump up because I want to lick your face' jump). I think he's well aware of his size (95lbs) and that it intimidates people. I personally think it's a rather fine alternative to biting in a situation where you want to drive someone away, and I'm glad he thinks this way first, instead of with his mouth...

I'm fortunate to live in an area without much serious crime and the threat of someone breaking into my home with intent to hurt me is quite unlikely - perhaps I'd want a real biting dog if this were the case - but protection training a dog is a serious endeavor, and just owning a dog that was trained to essentially be used as a weapon is a responsability I personally am not ready for. I'm glad my RR has brains enough to do just what's necessary for me (usually just standing there and barking is enough) without me having to worry about him going off on someone on his own.

~Natalya

Offline sarah yates

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2007, 01:52 AM »
Hi shodyL,

you may want to check out the following threads with regard to ridgeback protective instincts:

http://rr-forum.com/forum/index.php?topic=2570.0
http://rr-forum.com/forum/index.php?topic=800.0
Sarah Yates
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Offline kitoyogi

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Re: RRs biting
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2007, 02:09 AM »
I've weighed in on this topic already, but I wanted to ask other people's experiences as to what their RRs do when they DON'T bite, but feel the need to do SOMETHING. I've found that Oscar is very good at using his body to physically push people out of the way. He has on a few occassions also jumped up and pushed someone (once it was me! :o long story...) with his front feet as well (not the 'jump up because I want to lick your face' jump). I think he's well aware of his size (95lbs) and that it intimidates people. I personally think it's a rather fine alternative to biting in a situation where you want to drive someone away, and I'm glad he thinks this way first, instead of with his mouth...


A friend's male will do a couple of things: jump up and push away (like you mentioned) and also stand in position holding the person there and growling if they move.  He's never tried to bite.

I was walking just before dusk with my two at an off leash trail that we hadn't been to in quite awhile and I had just released them when a jogger came through the trees and Xhabbo charged him without barking or growling but it was clear that she felt he might be a threat.  The jogger stop, adverted his gaze and held out his hand to Xhabbo and she stopped, checked him out, sniffed his hand and came back to me.  It was the first time she did something like that and I think we were lucky to have such a smart jogger help teach her a lesson.  Trek on the other hand did nothing.  I have no idea if he would actually be of any help if there was a real threat, although ya never know.
MaryAnne Draper
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