Teaching your RR who's in charge

[acft90364]

Yes Michelle there were puncture wounds in both examples but Cowboy knows who the boss is now because I played alpha bitch like in the wild and got in his Sh*t like tomorrow.  I also neutered Kapani so the problem is resolved.


Michelle, and any other "veterans" who want to weigh in.  I was wondering, as a brand new owner of my 1st RR in about a month.  How or what do you do to "get in your ridgeback's Sh*t", with out affecting them long term in a negative way?  I understood from reading and talking with other owners and breeders, that RR are pretty sensitive to negative and harsh correction.  I was interested to know what experienced owners do with their dogs, as I may have to do the same with my boy in a similar situation.  Thanks.

Damien

[Kapani]

Yes Michelle there were puncture wounds in both examples but Cowboy knows who the boss is now because I played alpha bitch like in the wild and got in his Sh*t like tomorrow.  I also neutered Kapani so the problem is resolved.


Michelle, and any other "veterans" who want to weigh in.  I was wondering, as a brand new owner of my 1st RR in about a month.  How or what do you do to "get in your ridgeback's Sh*t", with out affecting them long term in a negative way?  I understood from reading and talking with other owners and breeders, that RR are pretty sensitive to negative and harsh correction.  I was interested to know what experienced owners do with their dogs, as I may have to do the same with my boy in a similar situation.  Thanks.

Damien

Damien Cowboy was just about 4 years old and that was the first time I ever had to get in his Sh*T it was the 4th time he went after Kapani for no reason and he wasn't joking around.  I basically picked him up onto his back legs, grabbed his cheeks put him on his back and told him no.  If the boys play to hard and I say no in a stern voice they both stop and look at me.  It was the first and only time I had to get after him.  If it happened with a strange dog I doubt me saying no is going to do anything so I do everything I can to keep him away from intact males.  Some males don't like other intact males and some could care less.  It took about a week to get Kapani in to get neutered but they went back to normal during that week including sleeping together and on top of each other:)  Kapani has been neutered for quite a few months now and things are completely back to normal....knock on a big piece of wood..LOL  I realize some people believe in ONLY postitive re-enforcement which I do most of the time but there are times I think you need to take care of things like the alpha dog would do in a pack situation.  JMO

[oscarsmom]

What Michelle described was entirely appropriate for her situation ("alpha rolling" or otherwise physically dominating the dog), but I want to add that this can/should only SAFELY be done with a dog who has been RAISED to respect it's leader. Obviously, Michelle brought up cowboy, and Kapani as well, to respect her as pack leader. When Cowboy lost his head momentarily, it took a strong hand to grab him and correct him, but if he was not confident about Michelle as "the boss" in the first place, he may very well have challenged her and she could have been bitten.

Raising a puppy who respects it's human as it's pack leader requires a lot of "groundwork" - most of which has nothing to do with "getting in the dog's Sh*t". There is loads of info out there today about structuring a dog's life, creating heirarchy (with you at the top) through even the most minor actions and activities (YOU eat first, YOU control the walk, YOU decide what and when the dog does just about anything). Basic obedience is also a very important part of this groundwork. Only after the dog WORKS for you does it gain your affection. All of this creates a dog who is comfortable with you calling the shots and will not feel compelled to constantly challenge you or try to lead the household through annoying, destructive or dangerous behviors. And, even when there are momentary lapses in judgement, or attempts to control OTHER members of the pack (other pets, partners, children, etc.), dogs who know their place in the pack and respect their human leaders will respond to correction without incident.

There will be a lot to this thread, I just wanted to bring it back to a few steps, as it started a bit far along in terms of an owner's relationship with their dog - it sounds like Damien will be starting from square one

~Natalya

[acft90364]

I sure will be  Natalya.  But, looking forward to it.  Aug 5th can't get here fast enough.   You guys wouldn't happen to know of any good books discussing the "alpha rolling", and the other "ground work" things that you mentioned.

Damien

[Kapani]

Oscarmom you are correct.

Cowboy does lose his head around intact males and he knows I'm the boss.  These dogs are very sensitive and as a puppy I was very careful to always be firm but positive.  I also had a great mentor God rest her soul.  Trust me dogs are the most well trained creatures but they know I'm the alpha in this pack..LOL

[oscarsmom]

Trust me dogs are the most well trained creatures but they know I'm the alpha in this pack..LOL

I have no doubt about that!! If I were one of your boys, I'd sure think twice before I stepped out of line

Damien, alpha rolling is a controversial subject - many people don't use it, and many owners of very strong, dominant breeds think it is in fact too dangerous, as it creates a situation where the only place a dog can bite you, should it choose to, is directly on the face. Much of this depends on the dog as well - every personality is different and some are much more unpredictable than others. PLEASE do research the technique well, including the proper way to do it (it takes precise timing, and knowing the right spots to push when trying to get a 90lb dog on it's back!) before attempting to do it yourself. It's not really the first thing you should be working towards anyway, training through obedience and socialization (lots of positive reinforcement) should come FIRST, and if you start to experience rank issues, there are many other ways to keep your pup in line - alpha rolling should be a last resort.

Regarding the rest of the groundwork, I've heard Ceasar Millan's book is a really nice place to start, though I haven't read it myself. I'm sure other's will have some good suggestions. (My dog reading of late has been consumed by RAW diet books... ). You can research a lot online as well, though, as with everything online, you'll get lots of contradictory info - this site is a nice place to start.

I'm PM-ing you...

*Very jealous of your new pup!

~Natalya

[sarah yates]

i used to do alpha rolls on khale until it became just plain silly. my suggestion would be raise the puppy positively. absolutely this will alleviate 99% of the conditions that would require you to get into your dog's face. then decide what is absolutely NOT ALLOWED and decide on the punishment and then stick to it. these x behaviors that require y punishment should only be utilised after the dog is an adult and you have both been around together long enough that you know each other.

so my unacceptables are:
fighting
food aggression
running into me on purpose or even by accident while playing with another dog

the punishment:
alpha roll, essentially what Kapani described. bodily (and carefully) removing a dog from it's standing position and putting them on their side or back. in addition i will try to place my hand on their neck, sort of like a mom dog would do with her mouth to a puppy (not harshly, just gentle restraint). they are held there with a gruff NO for a few seconds, then released and IGNORED for several minutes. after several minutes i return to the dog and 'apologize' essentially petting, tummy-rubbing, whatever they like.

the caveat to this is that it must be done immediately after the behavior and quickly- thus sort of ruling out the alpha roll for big dogs for most behaviors.

the ONLY time i have had to use this has been for running into me. i have been very lucky to not have had any fighting or food aggression, for minor altercations (growling or even looking at another dog's food bowl) they get a NO and a bum-smack.

honestly, if the ground work is done positively as a puppy you will not need to worry about getting nasty with your dog. but there will probably be at least ONCE when you MAY need to do something and it's best to be prepared as to how far YOU are willing to go. just for the record: I DON'T ADVOCATE THE ALPHA ROLL, however, i have it in my back pocket if i need it. i used to do it more often, but it really is absolutely silly- you end up getting more hurt and tussling with your dog in a fit of anger and frustration- and the whole thing becomes pointless and you become less of an alpha.

alternatives:
1. practice tummy-rubbing as a puppy, this puts the dog in a 'submissive' position and is interactive, playful and makes you the bringer of a good thing. give a verbal cue- 'tummy rub!' and the dog should offer the submissive position to receive attention.
2. practice distracting, i.e. if your dog seems really intent on something call them, interrupt them some way and reward them for changing their focus to you.
3. i have squirt bottles around the house with water and either a small amout of vinegar or calendula oil, and i have found it effective for (older) puppies, but NOT squirting in the face. even squirting in the general vicinity works (warning shot above the bow). it sounds silly, but squirt the object not the dog saying NO. with my female i all have to do is reach for the squirt bottle and she's out of the house.
4. my understanding is that, in the case of a dog fight, the standard procedure is to grab the back legs and pull the dog away from the combat zone, this only works if someone else is also pulling on the legs of the other dog(s).

with a new pup rather than focussing on 'how am i going to make this dog submissive and me the alpha' rather focus on loving and cuddling and holding and providing for the pup, and praise for good behaviors, this i think works best toward the bond you will need later when giving commands. also basic obedience and puppy socialization will absolutely contribute toward building a positive relationship.

this could get to be a hot topic, but i think it is really valuable and important to share the WHAT should be done WHEN. remember that is you that needs to decide how to build your relationship with your dog and you will eventually know what is effective based on the temperment of you and your dog.

good luck

[Kapani]

I have no doubt about that!! If I were one of your boys, I'd sure think twice before I stepped out of line

Damien, alpha rolling is a controversial subject - many people don't use it, and many owners of very strong, dominant breeds think it is in fact too dangerous, as it creates a situation where the only place a dog can bite you, should it choose to, is directly on the face. Much of this depends on the dog as well - every personality is different and some are much more unpredictable than others. PLEASE do research the technique well, including the proper way to do it (it takes precise timing, and knowing the right spots to push when trying to get a 90lb dog on it's back!) before attempting to do it yourself. It's not really the first thing you should be working towards anyway, training through obedience and socialization (lots of positive reinforcement) should come FIRST, and if you start to experience rank issues, there are many other ways to keep your pup in line - alpha rolling should be a last resort.

Regarding the rest of the groundwork, I've heard Ceasar Millan's book is a really nice place to start, though I haven't read it myself. I'm sure other's will have some good suggestions. (My dog reading of late has been consumed by RAW diet books... ). You can research a lot online as well, though, as with everything online, you'll get lots of contradictory info - this site is a nice place to start.

I'm PM-ing you...

*Very jealous of your new pup!

~Natalya

oops I meant aren't the most well trained..hee hee

[Kapani]

I never had to use the roll on my rr as a puppy but I did with my female rotti when she was a puppy.  She really was a challenging puppy but grew up as a perfect lady.  Even with sticky situations with her food and small children she would back away from her bowl and sit and wait for someone to remove the child.  I had to work hard with my rotti but as an adult dog anyone that had to work on her groomers, vets etc said she was the nicest rotti they ever dealt with...God rest her soul.  I do think having animals your whole life does give you a good instinct on how to handle things of course an excellent mentor is great as well!!

[ShellyK]

Oh...alpha rolling. Another tough subject! (We're hitting them today, aren't we?)

My two cents here:

NEVER, EVER alpha roll a dog unless you are absolutely,without-a-doubt, POSITIVE you can 'win.' Meaning that you can hold the dog there, not get mauled, and phsically prove you are the B-O-S-S. I don't know about you guys...but I'm definitely not positive I could do that w/ my Kodi. (Thankfully, I've never had a need.)

I believe strongly in showing your leadership in the pack in the other ways that Natalya mentioned: you eat first, you sleep on the good bed, you walk out doors first (though my dog trainer made some good points about how this really doesn't show dominance so, of course, all these methods are debatable.) you determine when the dog gets affection, when it gets treats, when it gets in the car, when it gets out of the car...etc. etc.

Course, does all that help when your dog gets in a fight? Thankfully, I've never had to break up a dog fight or handle Kodi in any situation like that. However, this comes back to another topic currently being discussed...dog bites. With all due respect Kapani, b/c our dogs/situations/etc etc are different which means we defininely would have different ways of handling things, but if any dog of mine were in a fight, one thing I would not do is alpha roll him, grab his face, or anything like that. To me, this is putting the decision making on the dog's side at a very bad time. The dog was just in a fight, his adrenaline is flowing, testosterone probably is flowing, and, in my opinion, at almost the worst possible moment, he is being challenged...I think that equals a primo situation where many dogs could blow it, make the wrong decision, and bite. That is exactly the kind of situation I'm working to keep my dogs out of. 
However, it seems to have worked in Kapani's example...so it's very apparent to me that dog training is a VERY inexact 'science.' Which is one of the reasons we have chat rooms like this, isn't it? 

~Shelly K.

[caro]

I have never had to use an alpha roll--don't think I physically could with some of my dogs.  Getting a 100 lbs of solid muscle on the ground would take more strength than I have. 

Re. dog fights, and I have had a couple that were really nasty.  Once you have the dogs separated, I throw each in a crate and leave them there to calm down before even examing the damage that has been done.  I have been told by a very experienced dog person that the way to break up a fight is to throw a blanket over the dogs.  Not sure if that would work but she assures me it does.  My mother used to break up the greyhound fights by squeezing a nerve inside the back leg.  I tried it on my Borzoi and it does work, but you have to get out of the way fast because they will whip around and nail you if they are still in a frenzy.  If you are going to pull the dog off by the back legs, make sure you do it turning in a circle so the dog cannot whip around and get you.  You can get small things of pepper spray which may work--haven't tried them or you can use a cattle prod to get their attention.  A hose turned full blast will work, but of course you can't do that in the house.  But just pray you never have to do it. 

Kapani mentioned that she had neutered one of her dogs and that solved the problem.  We did that too thinking it would solve the problem.  It never did.  To the day he died, one of our dogs would have killed the neutered dog if he possibly could.  And these were two males who adored each other when they were young.  They used to sleep together, play together, share toys, etc.  Then one day something happened, and the whole situation changed.

You must gauge the temperament of your puppy and how much correction you need to give.  I actually have a young male right now who is so "soft" all you need do is raise  your voice or arm and he will back down.  He is naughty, yes, but just a "no" is enough to make him go off into a corner and lie down.   His mother now is a lot harder headed, and his grandmother used to be hell on wheels though as she has aged she has become a whole lot sweeter and easier to control.   Just make sure that you are not overly hard on your puppy because you could so easily break his spirit and  you don't want to do that.

Caroline

[Kapani]

I have never had to use an alpha roll--don't think I physically could with some of my dogs.  Getting a 100 lbs of solid muscle on the ground would take more strength than I have. 

Re. dog fights, and I have had a couple that were really nasty.  Once you have the dogs separated, I throw each in a crate and leave them there to calm down before even examing the damage that has been done.  I have been told by a very experienced dog person that the way to break up a fight is to throw a blanket over the dogs.  Not sure if that would work but she assures me it does.  My mother used to break up the greyhound fights by squeezing a nerve inside the back leg.  I tried it on my Borzoi and it does work, but you have to get out of the way fast because they will whip around and nail you if they are still in a frenzy.  If you are going to pull the dog off by the back legs, make sure you do it turning in a circle so the dog cannot whip around and get you.  You can get small things of pepper spray which may work--haven't tried them or you can use a cattle prod to get their attention.  A hose turned full blast will work, but of course you can't do that in the house.  But just pray you never have to do it. 

Kapani mentioned that she had neutered one of her dogs and that solved the problem.  We did that too thinking it would solve the problem.  It never did.  To the day he died, one of our dogs would have killed the neutered dog if he possibly could.  And these were two males who adored each other when they were young.  They used to sleep together, play together, share toys, etc.  Then one day something happened, and the whole situation changed.

You must gauge the temperament of your puppy and how much correction you need to give.  I actually have a young male right now who is so "soft" all you need do is raise  your voice or arm and he will back down.  He is naughty, yes, but just a "no" is enough to make him go off into a corner and lie down.   His mother now is a lot harder headed, and his grandmother used to be hell on wheels though as she has aged she has become a whole lot sweeter and easier to control.   Just make sure that you are not overly hard on your puppy because you could so easily break his spirit and  you don't want to do that.

Caroline

I was very confident neutering Kapani would fix things what I didn't want to happen is one day Kapani would fight back and I would not be able to seperate two 100 llb dogs.  I also did not want it to get to the point where they both disliked each other that neutering them wouldn't make a difference.  I nipped it in the bud right away because once Kapani fought back it could have changed things completely forever.

[oscarsmom]

Just make sure that you are not overly hard on your puppy because you could so easily break his spirit and  you don't want to do that.

For the first 6-9 months, before he reaches adolscence, a pup will still be a bit on the "mindless" side and his actions will be based primarily on him not knowing any better. Once the basics and groundwork have been achieved, rules & boundaries established (in effect, once you have taught the dog "who's in charge") THEN, if the young dog begins to knowingly break rules, challenge or express aggression, THEN he'll need to be "corrected", sometimes in a physical way. But Caroline is right - a young pup needs positive reinforcement and loving structure more than anything, in order to build a great strong bond and trust with it's owner. Firmness and fairness will go a long way in helping him learn how to be the best dog he can. Harsh treatment will be perceived as unfair and will damage trust.

All that said, I didn't expect such a hard, dominant dog when we got Oscar, but I'll be quick to say that there was NO WAY were were going to make it through his adolescent "jerk phase" with physical correction. We have rolled him, on more than one occassion - though never after a dog "fight" - he was a lone aggressor in these instances so the heat wasn't on HIGH - yet. Done correctly, on a dog who respects you, it works. Idealy, an owner should be in enough control that they can head off fights and conflicts before they happen, especially if you know you have a sharp dog, but we all know how quickly things can escalate, and it only takes a minute of letting your guard down. As Sarah said, I don't alpha roll as regular practice, but I'm glad I have it in my arsenal because I HAVE needed it.

Shelly, I'm really glad you've never been in a situation in which you needed to correct Kodi in this way - I wish I were in your shoes - but not all dogs are the same. In the same vein, if I had a different, more "serious" breed with the same hard headedness, I might not use the technique for worry of a bite. So much of what we do or reccommend comes from what we know works for us, and the particulars of our personality AND that of our dogs - results can vary, and I completely respect your advice, along with that of everyone else here. I've only ever known or owned quite soft dogs so we had a sharp learning curve with Oscar (in retrospect, I'm glad I've had the experience). I now feel very differently about dog training than I used to, simply because I was blessed with such an as*hole! (I like to pick on him, but I love the butthead ). Hope that makes sense...

~Natalya

[melissap]

 

So funny Natalya I love the Alpha roll tactic & I have used it my self! It is I am sure hilarious to watch me do to my big boob!!!!

LOL

Melissa

[oscarsmom]

So funny Natalya I love the Alpha roll tactic & I have used it my self! It is I am sure hilarious to watch me do to my big boob!!!!

LOL

Melissa

 

Yeah, I can't stress enough that you need to learn the proper technique for this - it isn't easy!!Ideally, you knock them off balance at just the right moment, and have a chance to put your weight into them, BEFORE they even have a chance to struggle... if you miss your timing or your mark, it ends up as a very silly wrestling match with everyone's arms and legs in a tangle (you can't really fix things if it ends up like this - they're too strong - and the chance for clear correction is lost). The few times I've totally flumoxed it you could just see Oscar's face saying, "MOM! what the HECK are you DOING to me??!!" No anger, just utter confusion... in a sadly pathetic way...

It's a good thing RRs are so goofy and sensitive, if you tried that with a more serious dog like a GSD or Akita, that confusion would instead be insult and you'd quickly feel the wrath of dog who felt they'd been wronged... I'll stick with my hardheaded but emotional big boob of an RR!!

~Natalya