Teaching your RR who's in charge

[acft90364]

Yes Michelle there were puncture wounds in both examples but Cowboy knows who the boss is now because I played alpha bitch like in the wild and got in his Sh*t like tomorrow.  I also neutered Kapani so the problem is resolved.


Michelle, and any other "veterans" who want to weigh in.  I was wondering, as a brand new owner of my 1st RR in about a month.  How or what do you do to "get in your ridgeback's Sh*t", with out affecting them long term in a negative way?  I understood from reading and talking with other owners and breeders, that RR are pretty sensitive to negative and harsh correction.  I was interested to know what experienced owners do with their dogs, as I may have to do the same with my boy in a similar situation.  Thanks.

Damien

[Kapani]

Yes Michelle there were puncture wounds in both examples but Cowboy knows who the boss is now because I played alpha bitch like in the wild and got in his Sh*t like tomorrow.  I also neutered Kapani so the problem is resolved.


Michelle, and any other "veterans" who want to weigh in.  I was wondering, as a brand new owner of my 1st RR in about a month.  How or what do you do to "get in your ridgeback's Sh*t", with out affecting them long term in a negative way?  I understood from reading and talking with other owners and breeders, that RR are pretty sensitive to negative and harsh correction.  I was interested to know what experienced owners do with their dogs, as I may have to do the same with my boy in a similar situation.  Thanks.

Damien

Damien Cowboy was just about 4 years old and that was the first time I ever had to get in his Sh*T it was the 4th time he went after Kapani for no reason and he wasn't joking around.  I basically picked him up onto his back legs, grabbed his cheeks put him on his back and told him no.  If the boys play to hard and I say no in a stern voice they both stop and look at me.  It was the first and only time I had to get after him.  If it happened with a strange dog I doubt me saying no is going to do anything so I do everything I can to keep him away from intact males.  Some males don't like other intact males and some could care less.  It took about a week to get Kapani in to get neutered but they went back to normal during that week including sleeping together and on top of each other:)  Kapani has been neutered for quite a few months now and things are completely back to normal....knock on a big piece of wood..LOL  I realize some people believe in ONLY postitive re-enforcement which I do most of the time but there are times I think you need to take care of things like the alpha dog would do in a pack situation.  JMO

[oscarsmom]

What Michelle described was entirely appropriate for her situation ("alpha rolling" or otherwise physically dominating the dog), but I want to add that this can/should only SAFELY be done with a dog who has been RAISED to respect it's leader. Obviously, Michelle brought up cowboy, and Kapani as well, to respect her as pack leader. When Cowboy lost his head momentarily, it took a strong hand to grab him and correct him, but if he was not confident about Michelle as "the boss" in the first place, he may very well have challenged her and she could have been bitten.

Raising a puppy who respects it's human as it's pack leader requires a lot of "groundwork" - most of which has nothing to do with "getting in the dog's Sh*t". There is loads of info out there today about structuring a dog's life, creating heirarchy (with you at the top) through even the most minor actions and activities (YOU eat first, YOU control the walk, YOU decide what and when the dog does just about anything). Basic obedience is also a very important part of this groundwork. Only after the dog WORKS for you does it gain your affection. All of this creates a dog who is comfortable with you calling the shots and will not feel compelled to constantly challenge you or try to lead the household through annoying, destructive or dangerous behviors. And, even when there are momentary lapses in judgement, or attempts to control OTHER members of the pack (other pets, partners, children, etc.), dogs who know their place in the pack and respect their human leaders will respond to correction without incident.

There will be a lot to this thread, I just wanted to bring it back to a few steps, as it started a bit far along in terms of an owner's relationship with their dog - it sounds like Damien will be starting from square one

~Natalya

[acft90364]

I sure will be  Natalya.  But, looking forward to it.  Aug 5th can't get here fast enough.   You guys wouldn't happen to know of any good books discussing the "alpha rolling", and the other "ground work" things that you mentioned.

Damien

[Kapani]

Oscarmom you are correct.

Cowboy does lose his head around intact males and he knows I'm the boss.  These dogs are very sensitive and as a puppy I was very careful to always be firm but positive.  I also had a great mentor God rest her soul.  Trust me dogs are the most well trained creatures but they know I'm the alpha in this pack..LOL

[oscarsmom]

Trust me dogs are the most well trained creatures but they know I'm the alpha in this pack..LOL

I have no doubt about that!! If I were one of your boys, I'd sure think twice before I stepped out of line

Damien, alpha rolling is a controversial subject - many people don't use it, and many owners of very strong, dominant breeds think it is in fact too dangerous, as it creates a situation where the only place a dog can bite you, should it choose to, is directly on the face. Much of this depends on the dog as well - every personality is different and some are much more unpredictable than others. PLEASE do research the technique well, including the proper way to do it (it takes precise timing, and knowing the right spots to push when trying to get a 90lb dog on it's back!) before attempting to do it yourself. It's not really the first thing you should be working towards anyway, training through obedience and socialization (lots of positive reinforcement) should come FIRST, and if you start to experience rank issues, there are many other ways to keep your pup in line - alpha rolling should be a last resort.

Regarding the rest of the groundwork, I've heard Ceasar Millan's book is a really nice place to start, though I haven't read it myself. I'm sure other's will have some good suggestions. (My dog reading of late has been consumed by RAW diet books... ). You can research a lot online as well, though, as with everything online, you'll get lots of contradictory info - this site is a nice place to start.

I'm PM-ing you...

*Very jealous of your new pup!

~Natalya

[sarah yates]

i used to do alpha rolls on khale until it became just plain silly. my suggestion would be raise the puppy positively. absolutely this will alleviate 99% of the conditions that would require you to get into your dog's face. then decide what is absolutely NOT ALLOWED and decide on the punishment and then stick to it. these x behaviors that require y punishment should only be utilised after the dog is an adult and you have both been around together long enough that you know each other.

so my unacceptables are:
fighting
food aggression
running into me on purpose or even by accident while playing with another dog

the punishment:
alpha roll, essentially what Kapani described. bodily (and carefully) removing a dog from it's standing position and putting them on their side or back. in addition i will try to place my hand on their neck, sort of like a mom dog would do with her mouth to a puppy (not harshly, just gentle restraint). they are held there with a gruff NO for a few seconds, then released and IGNORED for several minutes. after several minutes i return to the dog and 'apologize' essentially petting, tummy-rubbing, whatever they like.

the caveat to this is that it must be done immediately after the behavior and quickly- thus sort of ruling out the alpha roll for big dogs for most behaviors.

the ONLY time i have had to use this has been for running into me. i have been very lucky to not have had any fighting or food aggression, for minor altercations (growling or even looking at another dog's food bowl) they get a NO and a bum-smack.

honestly, if the ground work is done positively as a puppy you will not need to worry about getting nasty with your dog. but there will probably be at least ONCE when you MAY need to do something and it's best to be prepared as to how far YOU are willing to go. just for the record: I DON'T ADVOCATE THE ALPHA ROLL, however, i have it in my back pocket if i need it. i used to do it more often, but it really is absolutely silly- you end up getting more hurt and tussling with your dog in a fit of anger and frustration- and the whole thing becomes pointless and you become less of an alpha.

alternatives:
1. practice tummy-rubbing as a puppy, this puts the dog in a 'submissive' position and is interactive, playful and makes you the bringer of a good thing. give a verbal cue- 'tummy rub!' and the dog should offer the submissive position to receive attention.
2. practice distracting, i.e. if your dog seems really intent on something call them, interrupt them some way and reward them for changing their focus to you.
3. i have squirt bottles around the house with water and either a small amout of vinegar or calendula oil, and i have found it effective for (older) puppies, but NOT squirting in the face. even squirting in the general vicinity works (warning shot above the bow). it sounds silly, but squirt the object not the dog saying NO. with my female i all have to do is reach for the squirt bottle and she's out of the house.
4. my understanding is that, in the case of a dog fight, the standard procedure is to grab the back legs and pull the dog away from the combat zone, this only works if someone else is also pulling on the legs of the other dog(s).

with a new pup rather than focussing on 'how am i going to make this dog submissive and me the alpha' rather focus on loving and cuddling and holding and providing for the pup, and praise for good behaviors, this i think works best toward the bond you will need later when giving commands. also basic obedience and puppy socialization will absolutely contribute toward building a positive relationship.

this could get to be a hot topic, but i think it is really valuable and important to share the WHAT should be done WHEN. remember that is you that needs to decide how to build your relationship with your dog and you will eventually know what is effective based on the temperment of you and your dog.

good luck

[Kapani]

I have no doubt about that!! If I were one of your boys, I'd sure think twice before I stepped out of line

Damien, alpha rolling is a controversial subject - many people don't use it, and many owners of very strong, dominant breeds think it is in fact too dangerous, as it creates a situation where the only place a dog can bite you, should it choose to, is directly on the face. Much of this depends on the dog as well - every personality is different and some are much more unpredictable than others. PLEASE do research the technique well, including the proper way to do it (it takes precise timing, and knowing the right spots to push when trying to get a 90lb dog on it's back!) before attempting to do it yourself. It's not really the first thing you should be working towards anyway, training through obedience and socialization (lots of positive reinforcement) should come FIRST, and if you start to experience rank issues, there are many other ways to keep your pup in line - alpha rolling should be a last resort.

Regarding the rest of the groundwork, I've heard Ceasar Millan's book is a really nice place to start, though I haven't read it myself. I'm sure other's will have some good suggestions. (My dog reading of late has been consumed by RAW diet books... ). You can research a lot online as well, though, as with everything online, you'll get lots of contradictory info - this site is a nice place to start.

I'm PM-ing you...

*Very jealous of your new pup!

~Natalya

oops I meant aren't the most well trained..hee hee

[Kapani]

I never had to use the roll on my rr as a puppy but I did with my female rotti when she was a puppy.  She really was a challenging puppy but grew up as a perfect lady.  Even with sticky situations with her food and small children she would back away from her bowl and sit and wait for someone to remove the child.  I had to work hard with my rotti but as an adult dog anyone that had to work on her groomers, vets etc said she was the nicest rotti they ever dealt with...God rest her soul.  I do think having animals your whole life does give you a good instinct on how to handle things of course an excellent mentor is great as well!!

[ShellyK]

Oh...alpha rolling. Another tough subject! (We're hitting them today, aren't we?)

My two cents here:

NEVER, EVER alpha roll a dog unless you are absolutely,without-a-doubt, POSITIVE you can 'win.' Meaning that you can hold the dog there, not get mauled, and phsically prove you are the B-O-S-S. I don't know about you guys...but I'm definitely not positive I could do that w/ my Kodi. (Thankfully, I've never had a need.)

I believe strongly in showing your leadership in the pack in the other ways that Natalya mentioned: you eat first, you sleep on the good bed, you walk out doors first (though my dog trainer made some good points about how this really doesn't show dominance so, of course, all these methods are debatable.) you determine when the dog gets affection, when it gets treats, when it gets in the car, when it gets out of the car...etc. etc.

Course, does all that help when your dog gets in a fight? Thankfully, I've never had to break up a dog fight or handle Kodi in any situation like that. However, this comes back to another topic currently being discussed...dog bites. With all due respect Kapani, b/c our dogs/situations/etc etc are different which means we defininely would have different ways of handling things, but if any dog of mine were in a fight, one thing I would not do is alpha roll him, grab his face, or anything like that. To me, this is putting the decision making on the dog's side at a very bad time. The dog was just in a fight, his adrenaline is flowing, testosterone probably is flowing, and, in my opinion, at almost the worst possible moment, he is being challenged...I think that equals a primo situation where many dogs could blow it, make the wrong decision, and bite. That is exactly the kind of situation I'm working to keep my dogs out of. 
However, it seems to have worked in Kapani's example...so it's very apparent to me that dog training is a VERY inexact 'science.' Which is one of the reasons we have chat rooms like this, isn't it? 

~Shelly K.

[caro]

I have never had to use an alpha roll--don't think I physically could with some of my dogs.  Getting a 100 lbs of solid muscle on the ground would take more strength than I have. 

Re. dog fights, and I have had a couple that were really nasty.  Once you have the dogs separated, I throw each in a crate and leave them there to calm down before even examing the damage that has been done.  I have been told by a very experienced dog person that the way to break up a fight is to throw a blanket over the dogs.  Not sure if that would work but she assures me it does.  My mother used to break up the greyhound fights by squeezing a nerve inside the back leg.  I tried it on my Borzoi and it does work, but you have to get out of the way fast because they will whip around and nail you if they are still in a frenzy.  If you are going to pull the dog off by the back legs, make sure you do it turning in a circle so the dog cannot whip around and get you.  You can get small things of pepper spray which may work--haven't tried them or you can use a cattle prod to get their attention.  A hose turned full blast will work, but of course you can't do that in the house.  But just pray you never have to do it. 

Kapani mentioned that she had neutered one of her dogs and that solved the problem.  We did that too thinking it would solve the problem.  It never did.  To the day he died, one of our dogs would have killed the neutered dog if he possibly could.  And these were two males who adored each other when they were young.  They used to sleep together, play together, share toys, etc.  Then one day something happened, and the whole situation changed.

You must gauge the temperament of your puppy and how much correction you need to give.  I actually have a young male right now who is so "soft" all you need do is raise  your voice or arm and he will back down.  He is naughty, yes, but just a "no" is enough to make him go off into a corner and lie down.   His mother now is a lot harder headed, and his grandmother used to be hell on wheels though as she has aged she has become a whole lot sweeter and easier to control.   Just make sure that you are not overly hard on your puppy because you could so easily break his spirit and  you don't want to do that.

Caroline

[Kapani]

I have never had to use an alpha roll--don't think I physically could with some of my dogs.  Getting a 100 lbs of solid muscle on the ground would take more strength than I have. 

Re. dog fights, and I have had a couple that were really nasty.  Once you have the dogs separated, I throw each in a crate and leave them there to calm down before even examing the damage that has been done.  I have been told by a very experienced dog person that the way to break up a fight is to throw a blanket over the dogs.  Not sure if that would work but she assures me it does.  My mother used to break up the greyhound fights by squeezing a nerve inside the back leg.  I tried it on my Borzoi and it does work, but you have to get out of the way fast because they will whip around and nail you if they are still in a frenzy.  If you are going to pull the dog off by the back legs, make sure you do it turning in a circle so the dog cannot whip around and get you.  You can get small things of pepper spray which may work--haven't tried them or you can use a cattle prod to get their attention.  A hose turned full blast will work, but of course you can't do that in the house.  But just pray you never have to do it. 

Kapani mentioned that she had neutered one of her dogs and that solved the problem.  We did that too thinking it would solve the problem.  It never did.  To the day he died, one of our dogs would have killed the neutered dog if he possibly could.  And these were two males who adored each other when they were young.  They used to sleep together, play together, share toys, etc.  Then one day something happened, and the whole situation changed.

You must gauge the temperament of your puppy and how much correction you need to give.  I actually have a young male right now who is so "soft" all you need do is raise  your voice or arm and he will back down.  He is naughty, yes, but just a "no" is enough to make him go off into a corner and lie down.   His mother now is a lot harder headed, and his grandmother used to be hell on wheels though as she has aged she has become a whole lot sweeter and easier to control.   Just make sure that you are not overly hard on your puppy because you could so easily break his spirit and  you don't want to do that.

Caroline

I was very confident neutering Kapani would fix things what I didn't want to happen is one day Kapani would fight back and I would not be able to seperate two 100 llb dogs.  I also did not want it to get to the point where they both disliked each other that neutering them wouldn't make a difference.  I nipped it in the bud right away because once Kapani fought back it could have changed things completely forever.

[oscarsmom]

Just make sure that you are not overly hard on your puppy because you could so easily break his spirit and  you don't want to do that.

For the first 6-9 months, before he reaches adolscence, a pup will still be a bit on the "mindless" side and his actions will be based primarily on him not knowing any better. Once the basics and groundwork have been achieved, rules & boundaries established (in effect, once you have taught the dog "who's in charge") THEN, if the young dog begins to knowingly break rules, challenge or express aggression, THEN he'll need to be "corrected", sometimes in a physical way. But Caroline is right - a young pup needs positive reinforcement and loving structure more than anything, in order to build a great strong bond and trust with it's owner. Firmness and fairness will go a long way in helping him learn how to be the best dog he can. Harsh treatment will be perceived as unfair and will damage trust.

All that said, I didn't expect such a hard, dominant dog when we got Oscar, but I'll be quick to say that there was NO WAY were were going to make it through his adolescent "jerk phase" with physical correction. We have rolled him, on more than one occassion - though never after a dog "fight" - he was a lone aggressor in these instances so the heat wasn't on HIGH - yet. Done correctly, on a dog who respects you, it works. Idealy, an owner should be in enough control that they can head off fights and conflicts before they happen, especially if you know you have a sharp dog, but we all know how quickly things can escalate, and it only takes a minute of letting your guard down. As Sarah said, I don't alpha roll as regular practice, but I'm glad I have it in my arsenal because I HAVE needed it.

Shelly, I'm really glad you've never been in a situation in which you needed to correct Kodi in this way - I wish I were in your shoes - but not all dogs are the same. In the same vein, if I had a different, more "serious" breed with the same hard headedness, I might not use the technique for worry of a bite. So much of what we do or reccommend comes from what we know works for us, and the particulars of our personality AND that of our dogs - results can vary, and I completely respect your advice, along with that of everyone else here. I've only ever known or owned quite soft dogs so we had a sharp learning curve with Oscar (in retrospect, I'm glad I've had the experience). I now feel very differently about dog training than I used to, simply because I was blessed with such an as*hole! (I like to pick on him, but I love the butthead ). Hope that makes sense...

~Natalya

[melissap]

 

So funny Natalya I love the Alpha roll tactic & I have used it my self! It is I am sure hilarious to watch me do to my big boob!!!!

LOL

Melissa

[oscarsmom]

So funny Natalya I love the Alpha roll tactic & I have used it my self! It is I am sure hilarious to watch me do to my big boob!!!!

LOL

Melissa

 

Yeah, I can't stress enough that you need to learn the proper technique for this - it isn't easy!!Ideally, you knock them off balance at just the right moment, and have a chance to put your weight into them, BEFORE they even have a chance to struggle... if you miss your timing or your mark, it ends up as a very silly wrestling match with everyone's arms and legs in a tangle (you can't really fix things if it ends up like this - they're too strong - and the chance for clear correction is lost). The few times I've totally flumoxed it you could just see Oscar's face saying, "MOM! what the HECK are you DOING to me??!!" No anger, just utter confusion... in a sadly pathetic way...

It's a good thing RRs are so goofy and sensitive, if you tried that with a more serious dog like a GSD or Akita, that confusion would instead be insult and you'd quickly feel the wrath of dog who felt they'd been wronged... I'll stick with my hardheaded but emotional big boob of an RR!!

~Natalya

[melissap]

I have never seen Brando react negatively to this tactic, but you are right timing is everyhting! I have laughed pretty hard at my husband when he has mis-timed the roll & it is like he is moving in slow motion mid air diving while Brando is looking at him thinking "sucker"  Missed me huh   

Exit stage left and greg charlie brown style in the dirt! Zola would not find this to be funny at all,but she is more sensative 

Melissa P

[jnridgebck]

I am sure that the Alpha roll has it's place in most peoples arsonal of training techniques.  I have a challenging Ridgeback boy and have pulled it out to use once or twice when he was really being a stuborn dog.  

But as for the first time RR owner, he needs to find a good POSITIVE training class that uses food/clicker for his puppy.  If you are worried about your dog taking over, try the NOTHING IN LIFE IS FREE Plan.  You can google that and find great information.  This plan is a lifestyle and would be great for a new puppy.  I think if you followed the advice in this plan, it would probably prevent a "Come to Jesus" meeting between you and your adolesent Ridgeback.

Good luck!
Ragan K

[melissap]

Hey Ragan,

Yes, I  was not intending to suggest that this as a training method for a new pup.  I had gotten a little off topic. With my dogs, like I mentioned; my girl has never needed any "come to Jesus" tactics.

I think the resource you mentioned is a great one for a new puppy & I would certainly suggest more passive yet firm methods and teaching resepct for boundaries with a young pup!

I was just getting a laugh out of the tackle - as at the 9 month - 1.5 year stage sometimes a good dive can be necessary to get your dogs attention to keep them from harm. IE running after something into the street.

I have also shouldered Brando off of the counter to get the point across to stay out of the sink and other such times where he is focused on something else and is intentionally ignoring me. There once I missed and snacked my shoulder into the frig 

I did not mean it to be a training tactic for a new puppy as is.

Melissa

[jnridgebck]

Hi Melissa,
I understood that everyone wasn't saying that the alpha roll was the way to handle all situations.  As pointed out it is very controversial. 
Dog training is not an exact science! 

I just wanted to make it clear that an alpha roll was not the "fix all problems" training technique.  In fact, many trainers think it is outdated and harsh.  In my opinion, there is no technique that cures all ills. 

I have used a version of the alpha roll on my boy when he tried to be food protective out of nowhere.  There were other ways to handle it that were gentler but it was very effective and brought the point across.

Thanks,

Ragan K

[acft90364]

It sounds like "alpha-rolling" is definitely a last-last-last resort.  I think I'll stick with the very small things that can be done, that were mentioned in Natalya's earlier post.  I does seem that the consistent small techniques would have a greater impact on overall behavior.  I definitely don't want my dog to see me as the cruel warden, just a loving leader.  Thank you all for the feedback.

Damien

[oscarsmom]

It sounds like "alpha-rolling" is definitely a last-last-last resort.  I think I'll stick with the very small things that can be done, that were mentioned in Natalya's earlier post.  I does seem that the consistent small techniques would have a greater impact on overall behavior.  I definitely don't want my dog to see me as the cruel warden, just a loving leader.  Thank you all for the feedback.

Damien

You got it! With that attitude you'll definitely start off on the right foot

Are you getting a show pup, or just a great companion?

~Natalya

[melissap]

 

Hi Ragan,

Yes, I think we are on the same page. It is largely dependant on the indivudual dog, and the situation. Of course there are many things to be taught and there are different ages and so many methods to work with - Clearly all positive reinforcement tactics and or simply being proactive in not letting bad puppy habbits get out of hand is the best place to begin a training program for a new puppy and maybe most importantly for a new owner.

~ but Damien beleive me ~ He at 96 Lbs is nowhere near feeling hurt by my actions. He almost literaly weighs as much as I do & is much stronger than me; it in both instances did more damage to me than him.

When it comes to ignoring the rules about responding to a call back when he could easily get hurt if he was successful in taking off, or in keeping him from getting  into something in the sink could cause a health problem; I will gladly throw my self on top of him to roll him to keep him in his adolesence from doing something stupid.

He these days would never take off - we are well past off lead obedience, thankfully

My girl is simply not wired to challenge me, and although he was a tougher nut to keep in line at times, I love them both dearly - but they are such different personalities. She on the other hand has had a lot less training and get very excited to run and likes to dash off. trouble is she is harder to catch - she is very speedy    But, she is not being defiant - she is just zippy and happy go lucky! My son has dubbed the Gwen Stephani song Sweet escape to her Whooo hoo  

Best ~

Melissa

[Rosebud]

Yes Damien the Alpha Roll is a last resort technique and as others mentioned can be a dangerous move by an inexperienced owner. I have never had to use an Alpha Roll, when mine seem to get to big for their britches I just simply loosely grab the skin below their jaw and move it up and into them so that they have to go into a sit position. I get those 'I'm REALLY sorry' eyes while they get a firm 'cut it out' or 'NO!'. Get's my point across without having to resort to drastic measures.

Teaching your pup through positive learning experiences (from the beginning) to respect and look up to you as their leader is a great way to not only reduce the risk of ever having to 'jump their sh*t' but to also develop a lasting, trusting bond with the pup.

[acft90364]

Natalya,

     I think show.  I'm kind of shy, but showing might be fun.  Not quite sure if it's for me.  I'm very interested in Lure Coursing, though.


Damien

[Kapani]

Yes Damien the Alpha Roll is a last resort technique and as others mentioned can be a dangerous move by an inexperienced owner. I have never had to use an Alpha Roll, when mine seem to get to big for their britches I just simply loosely grab the skin below their jaw and move it up and into them so that they have to go into a sit position. I get those 'I'm REALLY sorry' eyes while they get a firm 'cut it out' or 'NO!'. Get's my point across without having to resort to drastic measures.

Teaching your pup through positive learning experiences (from the beginning) to respect and look up to you as their leader is a great way to not only reduce the risk of ever having to 'jump their sh*t' but to also develop a lasting, trusting bond with the pup.

That is the goal but then reality sits in and there are times you have to be more like the alpha bitch in the wild.  I had a vet tell me once most women should not own these big dogs like the rotti etc because they are to easy on them.  He was beyond frustrated seeing these women bring these dogs into his clinic and allowing growling and nipping.  I happen to agree with him and I'm blessed that I had an incredible realtionship with my rotti and now my three dogs.  It takes experience to know when you might have to resort to something more then positive re-enforcement this is where a mentor is very very helpful.  I'm blessed that none of my adult dogs have ever even growled at me.  I think there is a balance between only positive training and what would happen in the wild with an alpha bitch correcting the dog.  These lists are great but since we aren't there and cannot see your dog if you could find yourself a mentor one who has RR's would be the best I think you will learn a ton.

[kitoyogi]

I agree with much of what has been said here.  The most important thing to consider is dog training is not a one theory or technique for every dog.  You have to know your dog well enough to know what approaches to take.   I never had to use the alpha roll until I got my bitch puppy.  I am normally quite soft with my dogs.  My bitch puppy from early on tried to take over so I had to take on a stronger roll with her.  I only alpha rolled her when her behavior was really inappropriate.  A one point she decided that she did not want to be handled, ie feet touched and so forth - really bad for any dog but especially for a show dog.  She is fortunately a fast learner.  She'll try things and once she learns that she can't get away with it she moves on.  The one thing I did not want to do is destroy her spirit.  It is important to figure out what that line is with each dog.  I also want a home environment with my dogs that I am the leader but not a dominator.  I haven't had to alpha roll her in months, and the times that I did do it were few.  

One of the most important things to remember to do is to praise and do it often.  If you have to correct inappropriate behavior, remember to praise when the dog redirects to an appropriate behavior.  Xhabbo went through her first heat at 10 months old along with the juvenile behaviors.  We walk almost nightly at an offleash area with lots of other dogs.  Xhabbo decided that all spazzy dogs or younger puppies were okay for her to dominate.  Part of this had to do with her being intact and about to go into heat.  Since she has returned to the park after being in heat, she has let go of most of this need to dominate but part of it is still with her.  I bring a squirt gun with me to use on her if she behaves in appropriately.  She respects the squirt gun greatly and only needed a couple of squirts to "get it".  Now the mere presence of the squirt gun is enough for her to behave appropriately.  In addition to the presence of the squirt gun, I praise her every time she greets new dogs nicely.  This works exceptionally well with her to reinforce appropriate behavior.  

My male is easy.  He'll do whatever you want, plus whatever else he thinks I might want when I offer food.  His only inappropriate behavior was bopping people & strangers in the face with his nose.  That was easily broken without a harsh correction but with negative reinforcement - ignoring him.  He quickly learned what behavior would get him the attention he wanted.  He is a really soft natured dog.  Any harsh correction is too much, and it isn't necessary with him.

The positive reinforcement training approach is still the best practice but it is not always practical for all situations.  All dogs behave and react differently to a variety of different training methods.  It is important to find out which your dog reacts best to.  That will take trial and error but always start with the most positive approaches and make variations from there.  Keep training light, easy and fun.  Ridgebacks burn out (or shut down) faster than most other breeds. 

With some the Positive Reinforcement training can be taken too far.  I've had disagreements with others who believe in total PR training and nothing else.  These people also happened to owned spayed and neutered Border Collies and Heelers or other types of pleaser dogs which I just don't think you can compare with all breeds, particularly ridgebacks.  Generally, training requirements are more complex with intact dogs & bitches than with neutered dogs & spayed bitches.

Natalya,

     I think show.  I'm kind of shy, but showing might be fun.  Not quite sure if it's for me.  I'm very interested in Lure Coursing, though.


Damien

Showing can be quite fun.  I am quite shy myself.  I have my first show dog and just started showing myself this past spring.  It is a different world than I am used to but I like it.   I've made some great friends.  Where are you located? 

Are you considering a dog or bitch? 

Whatever you decide, show or pet, welcome to the world of ridgebacks - it's addicting.   

[Dechen]

Worth a read: http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/Bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm

Alpha rolls do not have a place in natural canine behavior. 

I've owned a hard dog (RR mix), and used prong collar corrections.  I'm not a "positive only" person.  But had a I ever been foolish enough to force my RR mix onto his back, there's a good chance I wouldn't have come back up with a face.

A dog that will accept a person rolling it over doesn't need that kind of discipline anyway.  There are plenty of other effective ways to reinforce leadership, and they aren't dangerous if you misjudge a dog's personality.

I don't like to charge here in with my first post and be contrary, but I wanted the OP to hear a different opinion.  I think the best way to be in charge is to obedience train, and be consistent throughout a dog's life. 

Here is another view on alpha rolls, from someone who is REALLY into physical discipline with dogs: http://www.leerburg.com/dominac2.htm
FWIW I don't subscribe to all of Frawley's methods, but I find his words to be worth consideration.

Always remember that if you are going to pick a fight with a dominant dog, you had better pick one you know you can win.

My feeling is that in most cases with extremely strong tough dominant dogs I accomplish as much through subtle body language and voice commands. In other words, rather than create a situation where I have to string a dog up on a leash (and damage the bond with the dog) I will avoid the situation all together or I will scold the dog with a deep voice and stare at him. Think of it like this - the Alpha Wolf in a pack does not have to attack pack members to get his way. Through body language and verbalizing the Alpha is able to do almost everything he needs to do.

There are times with a real kick-ass dominant dog that I will not even force the issue with a direct stare because this could trigger an attack. I will wait until I solve the rank issue in a different way or I will wait until I can control an attack and win the fight. In other words I fight on my terms and not his terms. I will assume a subtle alpha position by scolding the dog and then either lead him away or call him to a heel and walk away from the situation.

Here is where we need to know our dogs. You may know that a truly strong, stubborn dog may fight you if you try and force him into a down position after a confrontation. I am a firm believer in not having a fight with my dog (unless it cannot be avoided). I believe that you lose a lot more than you gain in coming to blows with the animal. It’s always better to control him a different way. For example, if you see him stiffen up and hump his back after a situation occurs, don't try and down him to illustrate how much of a higher rank you are, rather heel him away and put him in his dog crate. Do something to show the dog that you are the one that is in control of him and his environment.

If a handler forces a situation to the point where the dog attacks, then that handler has made a mistake. He has misread the situation and now has a problem. The goal is to see the potential for a fight before it happens and avoid it without losing face with the dog.

I agree with Frawley about not picking any fight you can't win, and even a smallish dog will win over a human if it wants to argue about an alpha roll. 

[Kapani]

I hope no one is trying to pick  a fight but in emergency it does work well and I certainly don't think it should be used by a novice dog owner.  I've only had to use it on an adult dog once and it worked very well the other times were with a young female rotti.  I do think most things can be taken care of with a different method but in my situation it got the point across.     Again any new animal owner should have a mentor...

[oscarsmom]

I don't like to charge here in with my first post and be contrary, but I wanted the OP to hear a different opinion.  I think the best way to be in charge is to obedience train, and be consistent throughout a dog's life.

Welcome Dechen. I don't think your post is contrary at all - in fact, I thought this thread started with a hefty dose of reality about the DANGERS of alpha rolling, including suggestions about better ways to provide leadership for your dog... (there was some jesting in there too, but it wasn't the focus of the thread )

IMO the use of the alpha roll should be very carefully decided upon based on an individual dog AND it's handler's temperment and experience - it ISN'T a good idea for MANY dogs. That said, I have used the technique, and know others who do as well, with success (including a percentage of handlers and trainers on the Leerburg forum - which I also highly respect). Maybe they could all have acheived the same success using less controversial techniques, but they didn't, and they all have great dogs. *I will admit as well that I could have done it better the first few times if I had had a good mentor, but I'll thank my stars I have a hard but FORGIVING dog that was young and didn't punish me for it)

There are a lot of things humans do with dogs that don't have a place in "natural" canine behavior, because, as hard as we may try to be, humans aren't dogs. We CAN still communicate with a language that they understand however - and with the right dog, and the right human, alpha rolling *can* be used effectively to get a point across.

Whatever our opinions, it's our job as dog owners with experience to encourage those "newbies" to do their research - THOROUGHLY - before they attempt dominance tactics such as this. I hope this isn't perceived as trying to pick a fight back - not my intent at all...

~Natalya

[Dechen]

Thank you guys for recognizing I'm not out to pick a fight.


I do appreciate that no one here has said a novice owner should charge out and start flipping dogs around, and even if they had - there is plenty of room for different takes on the whole thing. 

I came back to this thread thinking "Oh no, I bet I pissed people off" and I'm glad that the pitchforks aren't out.

A little late - Hi!  I've been reading for a little while.

[oscarsmom]

Thank you guys for recognizing I'm not out to pick a fight.

I came back to this thread thinking "Oh no, I bet I pissed people off" and I'm glad that the pitchforks aren't out.

No worries!

~Natalya

[Breezybare]

Wow there has been a lot of great information here.  I have picked up a few new things myself.  So thanks to everyone...

The great advice by all about setting the good positive foundation early, finding out what works best for your dog, because each is different.  Be sure to catch him or her as they are doing what you want and start reinforcing that early.  This way they will learn exactly what pleases you from the beginning and that will become there life's mission.

I think what I learned as a last resort was a bit different from the 'alpha roll'.  I think I heard it called pinning.  This is where they are put on their side, not completely submissive by exposing their underbelly, but they still get the point.  You are supposed to hold them there until they quit squirming, and then they can be released.  And I have seen this done by other alpha dogs.  One of which was about a year old Golden who came over to play with my pup.  She was relentless with her play and puppy teeth.  He was getting tired, and just put pressure on her upper shoulder.  He was gentle and kind, and she got the point.  I think there lies an important key, gentle and kind.

I am not sure if I can quote someone, but here is goes hopefully I am quoting it correctly....
"We are in luck if, in training a dog, we can use his instincts as a basis for what we require.  For the more instinctive an action is, the more reliable it will be."

Sabrina

 

[Rosebud]

I think what I learned as a last resort was a bit different from the 'alpha roll'.  I think I heard it called pinning.  This is where they are put on their side, not completely submissive by exposing their underbelly, but they still get the point.  You are supposed to hold them there until they quit squirming, and then they can be released.  And I have seen this done by other alpha dogs.  One of which was about a year old Golden who came over to play with my pup.  She was relentless with her play and puppy teeth.  He was getting tired, and just put pressure on her upper shoulder.  He was gentle and kind, and she got the point.  I think there lies an important key, gentle and kind.

Momma dogs will do this to pups that get to pestersome. They just put their paw on the pup. Yes it is a gentle correction, meant to just let the pup know they are getting to big for their britches.

But I have seen this tactic used in subtler and more gentle, affectionate ways....Sally will do this to Rocket (who is already laying down) when she is trying to clean his face and ears. He will squirm and fuss a little bit about getting his face washed so Sally will very gently put her paw on his shoulder as if she's telling him "I hate it for you, but you need your faced washed", he just sighs and lays down. When she's done Rocket is happy and bouncy and looking to ME for a cookie. It is soooo sweet to watch.

[kitoyogi]

I think what I learned as a last resort was a bit different from the 'alpha roll'.  I think I heard it called pinning.  This is where they are put on their side, not completely submissive by exposing their underbelly, but they still get the point.  You are supposed to hold them there until they quit squirming, and then they can be released.  And I have seen this done by other alpha dogs.  One of which was about a year old Golden who came over to play with my pup.  She was relentless with her play and puppy teeth.  He was getting tired, and just put pressure on her upper shoulder.  He was gentle and kind, and she got the point.  I think there lies an important key, gentle and kind.

Pinning is what I actually did with Xhabbo as a puppy, not a real alpha roll but it is putting the dog/puppy in a more submissive position so it does establish dominance.  I think this did lay a good foundation.   I'm not sure that I have actually even seen a real alpha roll.  I've heard about Cesar Milan but never actually seen his show. 

I just watch how the mother reacts to her pups and how adult dogs that are in a pack type environment.  Some RR friend's and I walk our dogs at an off leash park on a regular basis and it is interesting to see how some of the older dogs and bitches react to the younger ones - similar to how the dam reacts to her pups - sometimes by making a lots of noise and putting the younger dogs head to the ground with their heads and the younger dog often seeks out the more dominant dog.  The dominant dogs aren't hurting the younger ones but simply making a point of who is in charge.  This is usually only done when one from the pack has not been around on a regular basis and needs a reminder.

The pinning helps the dog understand that they have to put up with being handled.  This is beneficial for doing nails, showing, vet visits, etc.  I think show class, particularly the examinations really help train a dog to be handled.  Xhabbo has always a good atitude with the examinations while showing and during show class.