Pure speed

[matteo1]

Anyone know where ridgebacks fit in speedwise with other breeds? Our girl often seems to have an extra gear available when being chased by other dogs on the beach. She'll slow down a little for the chaser to almost catch up and then widen her stride and glide away. She hasn't been chased by any true speed hounds, but she seems pretty quick.

So.....Are ridgebacks in the top thirty fastest breeds? Top twenty? Any thoughts?

thanks

[machem]

Hey there, right now I happen to be reading "Gazehounds and Coursing" by Salmon.  While he doesn't rank our RRs with the best dogs for coursing, nor spend as much time on the detailed description with respect to coursing (one paragraph versus approximately three pages per other breed), he does mention RRs as a possible coursing hound.  "Does the straight ridgeback have enough speed for hares, fox or coyote in the open field?  I'd certainly like to see a good one at work."

This may or may not help, but for pure speed he seems to think the whippet is the fastest (500 yards or less), with the greyhound the next fastest over that distance (up to one mile, but better at  1 mile), the saluki the fastest over one mile, i.e., it has almost the same speed, but better endurance than the greyhound.

He also mentions the fastest dogs have double-suspension gallop (greyhounds, whippets, salukis, cheetahs, jackrabbits).  I thinks our RRs run this way also (though I could be wrong, this is simply from analyzing the photos that I have taken, or seen of RRs in full flight).  From what I can gather about the physiology of RRs, the deep, but not too broad chest is great for endurance, and the strong hindquarters should put them up there for speed.

It's my feeling that because of what they were bred for, and how they run, they would be great at doing what a saluki can do, but not as quickly.

JC ran with a whippet today, that was fun.

Cheers,

Mike

[melissap]

Hi Mike and Mateo,

JC is lucky to have a whippet to run and play with! RR's are meant for speed based upon the physicacl attributes that you have explained. There are of course dogs that also have similar structure and move as fast if not faster; of course there is some room for individual variance based upon any particular dog in a breed & I am sure based upon every dogs individual level of exercise and physical condition.

There are probably some dogs that have a longer history is coursing specifically - but I think that a fit and well put together RR could have many of them beat!!

I LOVE watching a Rodgeback open up their stride and getting a full run on, beautiful to watch!!!

Enjoy!

Melissa

[Rosebud]

RR's are meant for speed based upon the physicacl attributes that you have explained.
Melissa

I have to disagree with this statement. A greyhound is built for speed and an RR should not have the same structure as a greyhound.

A RR is built for endurance not speed. It is Endurance and Quick reflexes that is what was necessary to avoid the reach of the dangerous African predators claws. Speed would have only been needed to take down non-predatory game, like gazelles.

I believe that the RR's ability to be 'cat-like' in stalking behavour would have made it possible to approach and take down game that in a full-out chase would have left a RR in the dust pouting. I have witnessed this 'cat like' stalking with my own pack, it is truly amazing to watch such disciplined behavour.

The AKC standard states: "......capable of great endurance with a fair (good) amount of speed."

In no way can this be interpreted that a RR should have the speed of a greyhound, which IS built for speed.

The whole RR standard, original and other interpretations ALL place emphasis on ENDURANCE as the most important aspect of the RR with only casual reference to speed.

Just something to think about.

[oscarsmom]

The whole RR standard, original and other interpretations ALL place emphasis on ENDURANCE as the most important aspect of the RR with only casual reference to speed.

I tend to agree with this as well. I think many RRs have a pretty powerful sprint, but the serious speeds don't last long, and then they're back to a trot - which they are much more efficient in. I doubt even the good ones could beat a greyhound or saluki at the game of flat out speed, though I'd like to see a greyhound do the type of switchbacks and mid-air 180s that our RRs do without even thinking about it!

If we could compare dogs to horses, with the true sighthounds like greyhounds being thoroughbreds, I'd liken the RR to a quarter horse - plenty of drive in a sprint, but able to slam on the brakes, turn on a dime and reverse direction another half dozen times in a heartbeat - just look at the muscle development (same applies from horses to dogs). Greyhounds are built like birds with a massive V8 engine at the back to propell them FORWARD. On top of overall heavier bone structure, Ridgebacks have a much more balanced distribution of muscle from front to back, to accomodate lots of strong twists, turns and acrobatics. As was mentioned, these dogs are all about movement, but actual speed is not the primary emphasis.

*On a side note, Oscar is my running partner and after a good season of training, we did 13 MILES last winter on the back roads - he maintained a smooth trot off leash nearly the entire way (broke into a zoomie at about mile 8, to be expected) and I was amazed at how effortless he looked - never panted, never looked fatigued, just motored away around me consistantly and beautifully. AND, after I thought SURELY that would have tired him out for DAYS, he got up the next morning and bounced out into the yard like he was on pogo sticks - this while I tried to get my stiff and tired knees to bend correctly again!! Without a doubt, the RR is an endurance dog - and a mighty fine one at that.

~Natalya

[caro]

I don't know about structure and speed, but last fall Hintza practiced with a Borzoi and left the Borzoi standing, and he didn't let up after he got the Borzoi beaten either.  When he got back to the start, he was ready to go again until he realized that the lure had stopped.  This is a dog that is well boned, right at the standard and well muscled.  I don't think he would have been able to match the speed of the Whippets though.  My guess is they are probably the fastest, probably even faster than the Greyhound.

Caroline

[machem]

Well, remember there is comparing breeds, and there is comparing specific dogs.  I'd have to see many of each (every?) breed doing similar things to be able to make comparisons.  That is why Salmon's book is so valuable (apart from his stated ignorance of RRs):  he has been coursing for thirty years, with hot blood and cold blood greyhounds, borzois, wolfhounds, etc etc.  Thus he is allowed to make generalities.

The woman who owned the whippet said she had followed her in her truck for something less than 1 km and her truck read above 40 MPH the whole time (she lives on acreage with lots of jackrabbits about).  I wouldn't doubt that one bit!  Anyone who courses with their RR would carry a lot of weight in this discussion.  Natayla mentioned how athletic/acrobatic RRs are, which I agree with, but I have seen plenty of whippets and greyhounds do some amazing 360 or 540 degree moves without losing much, if any of their forward speed.   These things can turn on a dime, feet on the ground, like nothing out there.

There are some lure coursing videos on YouTube which are interesting, but I kind of feel that real prey might change things a bit.

Interesting discussion, in any case!

Cheers,

Mike

[kitoyogi]

Natayla mentioned how athletic/acrobatic RRs are, which I agree with, but I have seen plenty of whippets and greyhounds do some amazing 360 or 540 degree moves without losing much, if any of their forward speed.   These things can turn on a dime, feet on the ground, like nothing out there.

I'm no expert but I will share my experiences with lure coursing, straight racing and oval track racing.  I field clerk for our lure coursing club and often sit with the judges so I often have a great view of all the sighthounds running.  We have some great Greyhounds and whippets that course with our club and fast but simply because how fast both of these breeds can move they do have more diifficult taking tighter turns than other breeds, and are more likely than other breeds to injure themselves because of it.  Where greyhounds and whippets truly do have every advantage is in straight racing and oval track racing.   The turns in oval racing are so gradual that it doesn't affect their speed much.   It is amazing to watch both of these breeds run.

He also mentions the fastest dogs have double-suspension gallop (greyhounds, whippets, salukis, cheetahs, jackrabbits).  I thinks our RRs run this way also (though I could be wrong, this is simply from analyzing the photos that I have taken, or seen of RRs in full flight).  From what I can gather about the physiology of RRs, the deep, but not too broad chest is great for endurance, and the strong hindquarters should put them up there for speed.

RR's also have the double-suspension gallop.

A RR can still beat a whippet or Greyhound but it is going to take talents other than speed, and a judge that recognizes those talents.  There are a number of RR's with BIFs.

Beyond the dog's build is also the dog's drive which is as important, if not more important. 

Another thing about RR's and coursing is that they are thinkers which generally leads to them to being cheaters, something that tends to less of a problem with greyhounds and whippets. 

I've clocked Trek at 30 mph but I have heard of others who've clocked their RR's at higher.  I didn't try to push him beyond that.  He does love to chase the truck.

[melissap]

I assume that endurance is some what related to speed, and vice versa. Now clearly they are also built for agility and thier ability to reason may enhance thier stalking habbits as to not waste energy; but those bursts of speed are just as much survival based even if in shorter spirts than a saluki - that does not mean that  the ability for speed is not there in the RR - and I DO think some are built differently and have a different capacity for speed in the RR lines than others.

RR's are difinety NOT A grey hound ~ but they are faster than many other dogs by design! When comparing to a GH or a saluki who are bred for speed and are much lighter boned; yet our RR's still incorporate the reach and build that is much more effective for both speed & agility making it a well rounded "athletic" dog that can easily out run and or out manouver even the fittest lab, shepard, ect.

I have seen them out run by a grey hound, but I would be happy to put him side by side many other hounds and especially other working or other groups knowing he will most likely take the lead and then some!

This being said, I have not coursed specifically - so I am making my comparison based in a more casual free run setting.

I would still bet by comparison that the RR is at least in the top 20 or so. 



Melissa

[caro]

I watched an IW course last fall.  She is I believe one of the top IW coursing hounds.  If that is the way an IW runs, then it is amazing that they were ever able to bring down and kill a wolf.  The prey drive was there, but her speed was definitely lacking.

Caroline

[Rosebud]

I assume that endurance is some what related to speed, and vice versa. Now clearly they are also built for agility and their ability to reason may enhance their stalking habbits as to not waste energy; .........
.......yet our RR's still incorporate the reach and build that is much more effective for both speed & agility making it a well rounded "athletic" dog that can easily out run and or out manouver even the fittest lab, shepard, ect.

Melissa

From what I understand the relationship of endurance and speed is one of sacrifice. Endurance is sacrificed for Speed and Speed is sacrificed for Endurance.

Just look at the Cheetah, an amazingly fast animal, built entirely for speed, but has very little endurance. Every time the Cheetah hunts it runs the risk of not only injury but also wasting precious energy in failed attempts. The survival of the Cheetah is crucial to successful hunts since it does not have the endurance to attempt another hunt before a significant period of rest. Too many failed attempts in a row and the Cheetah can starve to death. So while the Cheetah is considered the fastest animal, it has come at a price, and that price is the loss of Endurance.

There is a fine balance between Speed and Endurance and I believe that fine balance IS the RR. I also believe that our breed's founders understood that balance. They needed a dog that could work ALL DAY and not tire, that is Endurance. Now, they did had a need and access to Speed as well, the Greyhound. But what they ended up using was a compromise and they chose to compromise Speed for Endurance. This is evident by what was written in the 1922 original breed standard.

IN GENERAL APPEARANCE the Ridgeback should represent a strong, muscular and active dog, symmetrical in outline and capable of great endurance with a fair amount of speed.

[melissap]

Hi Caro,

I have only seen friend IW's in thier homes ~ beautiful and lovely tempermented dogs! I have not seen them course, but I assume that they are not as speed oriented as the saluki or GH ~ ? ~

Hard to say as this friend no longer lives near us but I would love to see them in action in an event like coursing!

You have most likely seen more of them then me; how would you say they stack up to the RR from a speed perspective?

Melissa

[melissap]

 

I suppose we should also remember that the Lion hunts entirely differenty than a Cheetah. Clearly the lion has less speed as the cheetah especially over any long haul the lion would be left in the dust. The lion relies more on the whole pride taking a role in thier hunting; as the RR's do when keeping the lion at bay. My assumption is the endurance to travel many miles tracking lion through the rough terrain and maintaining enough energy for the chase and then the bob and weave to bay is why the RR needs both Speed and endurance & agility to do their jobs as intended.

This to me is where the balance lies. I like the term "athletic" as it pertains to both speed and endurance. I love to watch them open up into a full on run -

No doubt that there are dog breeds that may be faster over the long  haul & in a straight shot, but the oval bone & angulations & chest should give the RR a good deal of speed & they should have enough reach to make long strides that many dogs do not have.

Melissa

[Kapani]

Melissa if you get a chance if you haven't already go to some coursing events up in MI.  You will see for the most part an RR is not as fast as the other sight hounds.  Michelle C is right the ridgeback should be built for endurance with a fair amount of speed.

[matteo1]

I spent a year and a half (off and on) in the Serengeti working on a documentary and was lucky enough to spend alot of time there watching and photographing lions, cheetahs, and leopards stalk and run down prey. Without going on and on about the cats (hyena vs. lion battle royales, cheetahs at full blaze), I saw some amazing displays of speed by all three. Although I spent many hours with a particularly successful mother cheetah -- she showed true arrogance, walking, then jogging toward her prey, before cranking it up to take  down Thompson gazelles -- probably even more impressive was watching Floppy Ear, a 400 lb. female lion open up to catch a wildebeest (which can also hit 50 mph) as it fled across the crater floor. That sized animal, moving that fast.....Wow.

The leopards I saw hunt were soloists that used invisibility cloaks to get themselves close to their prey. I saw one female slip through tall grass until she was almost next to a large gazelle. With an electric burst she fired out of the vegetation and caught the 150 lb. animal before it even knew she was there. Later, we watched as she dragged it up a tree. 150 lbs. of dead meat. She was maybe the same weight or a little less. Another time I waited for almost an hour as a leopard went after a bird. It didn't catch it, but once it got going, its speed was not negligible.

All three are fast (lions top out at 50 MPH; cheetahs at 70; leopards at 40 or so) and all have great cornering abilitity. But the leopard is the one that most reminds me of the ridgeback, not the lion that they are so closely tied to. Both leopards and ridgebacks are incredibly strong with great leaping ability (which any ridgeback owner can testify to); they are similarly shaped, full-chested with a medium sized body (especially when, to quote another forum member, they're in "bush trim" -- I love that phrase); they are both one of the most athletic breeds of their species, animals that can do so many different things so well and yet survive without being specialists. Of course, the cooperative hunting done by lions (which in its complexity can be truly boggling) is probably mirrored by the ridgebacks when they hunted them, yet in form and in athletic abilities I think they are more like the leopard.

We can't wait to take our 10 month old lure coursing -- she tried it out at about 5 months at a ridgeback club meeting and loved it (the lure course was set up for beginners, just straight ahead for 80 yards or so, no turns).