Author Topic: Biting Problem  (Read 2460 times)

Offline TDprange

  • Potential Ridgeback Addict
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • Biscuits: 14
    • Lucy the Ridgeback
Biting Problem
« on: March 10, 2009, 02:01 PM »
Help!  I have a feeling that the correct answer is "she's 3 months old"  However, by girl can get into a mode where she is nips and bites pretty hard.  She is better with me but is a lot worse with my girlfriend.  I have tried a lot of the techniques that I have read in various books.  I've tried yelping, I've tried holding her mouth closed, and turning my back to her and ignoring her.  For the most part these don't seem to have a big impact on her. 

This biting thing seems to have too levels... a low intensity level that is manageable and then a hi intensity mode that happens at about 10pm ever night when she wakes up from here nap or in the morning when she wakes up.  In those hi intensity moments she is a little psycho where the normal corrective actions don't seem to work and only spool her up even more.  When she gets real spooled up she will bark, bite and growl at me. 

Do you guys have any suggestions about the biting and maybe more importantly about how to calm her down.  I have enough pain tolerance to try and hold her in check but I am worried about how to correct her if she gets in this mode around others.
Trent Prange
BIF DC Ancient Hill Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds, SC, FCh, HIC

Offline kotchfam

  • RAA Board of Directors
  • *****
  • Posts: 2020
  • Biscuits: 101
  • Titus DOB 05/08/06 & Lucius 08/26/07
    • Venatus Spring Valley Rhodesian Ridgebacks
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2009, 02:21 PM »
Hi there!

You're not alone, this has happened to other folks as well. There are a ton of questions other folks have asked that you've encountered/will encounter here under Training & Behavior: http://rr-forum.com/forum/index.php/board,6.0.html

Here are two threads that specifically dealt with the issue you're having now:

http://rr-forum.com/forum/index.php/topic,4316.0.html

http://rr-forum.com/forum/index.php/topic,3789.0.html

I hope they help! If not please ask more questions. :)

Take care,

Kelley
~Kelley C. Kotch
"Titus" UKC GRCH AKC CH Spring Valley's Extra Duty for Titus JC CGC (pending recording)
"Lucius" UKC CH Spring Valleys Extra Duty for Lucius
www.venatusspringvalleyrr.com

Offline kitoyogi

  • Member of RAA
  • ****
  • Posts: 1436
  • Biscuits: 98
  • Why walk when you can bounce?
    • Kito Rhodesian Ridgebacks
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 02:40 PM »
I'd say it is fairly normal but still not appropriate.  This was my girl's most annoying habit, and she did outgrow it.  I found redirecting her behavior on to other things (toys, treats, games) seemed to help, in-addition to the other things that you are already doing.  Perseverance will prevail. 
MaryAnne Draper
www.kitoridgebacks.com

Offline Nick1150

  • Ridgeback Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • Biscuits: 6
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2009, 03:40 PM »
It seems the last few days we have the same problem too. If I understand correct you mean GAME BITTING and not actual bitting. I am trying, when he is game bitting, to avoid him and stop playing with him. He understands this way that when bitting none will play with him, so he terminates the bitting. But then again after a few minutes he starts again.

Any hints ?
Nick

Offline SarahandNala

  • Ridgeback Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Biscuits: 3
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2009, 04:02 PM »
Same problem here...I think it's a 3 month old thing LOL

Nala would rather play with her toys...but if my hands cross her line of sight...she will definitely try to mouth me. I've learned (at least with her) that she is more interested in my fingers -- If I see her eye'ing my hands, I will make a fist and keep my hands still. Usually she will divert her attention to something else when she no longer sees 10 wiggling "play things". If she does go after my fists, I will cross my arms Indian style, stand up, and turn my back to her. This has worked for me on and off....the last time I stood up and turned my back on her she started tugging at my pant legs LOL One step at a time...if I find this stops working, I will leave the room all together.

I too tried ALL the recommended approaches to mouthing, but there was no textbook answers for me. I've just had to try different approaches and see what she reacts to. If I pull away, or try to force her snout closed she gets 100 times worse...I've tried to redirect her attention to a toy, but the action of me reaching for a toy with my hands, almost intensifies her nipping, since my fingers are moving, I'm pulling away from her, and I'm going after a toy. So right now, the stationary fists are the best I've come up with.

We are slooooooooowly getting better with the mouthing, however, if I try to hold her in my arms (when she wants to play) she will leap up and try to eat my hair....which sometimes gets mistaken for my chin or nose...if you think hand nipping hurts...try the nose!  :o LOL. I correct her with a toy, but it's usually hard to divert her attention until I put her down.

One day at a time  ;D


Offline TDprange

  • Potential Ridgeback Addict
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • Biscuits: 14
    • Lucy the Ridgeback
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2009, 09:05 AM »
Looking back on it I think that it was mostly a "3 month old" thing.  Perhaps we could have done something different to speed her out of the biting phase.  Lucy is nearly 5 months old now and is such a lover of a dog.  She rarely bites anymore if ever.  She has started chewing a lot more but I think that has more to do with her getting ready to teeth than anything else.

Trent Prange
BIF DC Ancient Hill Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds, SC, FCh, HIC

Offline Louise n Shumba

  • Ridgeback Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Biscuits: 3
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2009, 05:26 PM »
There is hope then. We have good days and bad days, if we are tired Shumba definitely takes advantage and turns the biting into a game. He has taken to nipping my thighs and forearms and sometimes when we say no and redirect him he is fine, I find he is worst when I am in the middle of the garden and he just starts going for my ankles and I have no where to go, if I turn my back he jumps and nips my back, if I try to make it inside, it turns in to a game where I cannot get him off me, I get frustrated and the whole thing escalates. He is now 16weeks old and has just lost his first two teeth, and I expect the chewing because he is teething, its the nipping I find upsetting :'(

Offline sylvie83

  • Potential Ridgeback Addict
  • **
  • Posts: 185
  • Biscuits: -7
  • Manayakaya Bakari aka KIMBA
    • Rhodesian Ridgeback de l'Ecume des Jours
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2009, 01:28 AM »
Upsetting, yes and unacceptable ..... What about a good slap and loud NO ?

Offline Deniseeb

  • RAA Board of Directors
  • *****
  • Posts: 2280
  • Biscuits: 104
  • Beau, Finn & Bindi
    • Bindura Rhodesian Ridgebacks
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2009, 08:49 AM »
Uggh.  I remember this stage.  Beau was worse than Finn.  We did the yelping as well as the taking the skin of the neck and giving it a quick, but gentle, twist.  We also woiuld remove our hands, arms, etc from the pup's mouth and offer a toy.  We alos employed the loud "NO".  It's just something they will grow out of.  I believe they do need to be corrected when they do it, but nothing seemed to work. 

Oh.  And this will last until they are done teething.  Probably until 6-7 months old. 

Denise
Denise Eb
Crestridge Ujamaa Beauregard, CGC
CH. Kengali's Leap of Faith, SC
GRCH. Regal Tolerton's Luminara Unduli for Bindura
www.bindurarr.com

Offline Nick1150

  • Ridgeback Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • Biscuits: 6
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2009, 10:41 AM »
Oh.  And this will last until they are done teething.  Probably until 6-7 months old. 
Lets hope it does Hug.... Just a few minutes Ermis has destroyed my daughters new shirt !!!!!

He seems not to listen to anything... he stopes bite playing after NO, and the next second he begins again!!!
Nick

Offline Louise n Shumba

  • Ridgeback Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Biscuits: 3
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2009, 12:11 PM »
I think sometimes they just want to play rough, and there isn't anyone for him to play rough with. If he goes really mad, like he has just done, trying to bite my arms and thighs, I send him out into the garden, and he has just gone bananas, taking it out on the plants, plant pots, his toys. He then comes and sits calmly by the back door, I've let him in sent him to his bed and within 30seconds he is asleep ahhhh!!!! Must be a puppy thing.

Offline TDprange

  • Potential Ridgeback Addict
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • Biscuits: 14
    • Lucy the Ridgeback
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2009, 03:46 PM »
There could be something to that.  Lucy's biting calmed way down after she started day care.  She is a much lower energy dog when that happens.  Now that she is playing with the big dogs at day care she really gets all of her agression out of her system during the day. 

I've also read that the socialization that they do with other dogs also teaches them not to bite that much.  It seems that other dogs don't like to be bitten either. 
Trent Prange
BIF DC Ancient Hill Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds, SC, FCh, HIC

Offline caro

  • Kennel Manager
  • RAA Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5390
  • Biscuits: 211
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2009, 06:03 PM »
I would definitely employ the spray bottle.  You can get a small one that you can carry quite easily.  Fill it with water and when he starts attacking your ankles, give him a sharp spray and a loud "no".  Another thing I have heard works, but never tested is to get a tin can and fill it with stones so that when you rattle it at him it makes a very loud noise.  It's definitely an unacceptable behavior and should be stopped, even if it is because he has more energy than he knows what to do with.  To this day I still have a spray bottle with water not very far away for times when they lose control.  They don't like it but it doesn't do them any harm.  Just don't aim for the eyes.

Caroline

Offline Nick1150

  • Ridgeback Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • Biscuits: 6
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2009, 03:20 PM »
Hi again,

I need your help  :o

My RR, Ermis is now 4 months and 4 days old. He is getting a long walk every afternoon or instead of that, few hours at the local puppy park. I thought with so much energy loss, he could stay calm in the house. Instead of that he wants more and more games. Thats no problem for us, as long as he does not start game bitting, and believe me I tried everything to stop this, but without any success. In fact when he recieves a BIG "NO" he starts barking at us. The good news is that bitting is less day by day, but it is annoying enough to post for help.

Any hints ?
Nick

Offline machem

  • Member of RAA
  • ****
  • Posts: 1446
  • Biscuits: 106
  • JC (D) whelped 11/14/06 June (B) whelped 8/5/07
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2009, 03:24 PM »
Count to ten and take a deep breath! :)

Seriously, it seems like it is taking forever, but in a couple weeks, he will be much better and you will think "that wasn't so bad".  Consistency and patience now really pays off.  Have a toy to shove in the little piranha's mouth.

If you want a challenge, get a PWD through this phase!!!   ::)

Cheers

Mike
Mike McCallum and the Terrible Two: J.C. (dog) and June (bitch) and Willie (the alien PWD)
Elk Grove, CA USA
twitter; flickr; family

Offline Nick1150

  • Ridgeback Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • Biscuits: 6
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2009, 01:26 AM »
Count to ten and take a deep breath! :)

Seriously, it seems like it is taking forever, but in a couple weeks, he will be much better and you will think "that wasn't so bad".  Consistency and patience now really pays off.  Have a toy to shove in the little piranha's mouth.

If you want a challenge, get a PWD through this phase!!!   ::)

Cheers

Mike

so patience is the word, right?

where can I buy one? How much does it costs? Do you have a url?

Thanks  ;D
Nick

Offline Louise n Shumba

  • Ridgeback Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Biscuits: 3
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2009, 11:01 AM »
Nick, I know where you are coming from, Shumba is now 20 weeks old and we are still waiting for him to get the message that biting isn't acceptable. He has taken to running and charging at us and latching on with his teeth. I have tried turning my back, this doesn't work (it's almost as if he is saying oi don't ignore me). The yelp doesn't work. I've tried the recommended thumb in his lower jaw, leaving the room (you name it we've tried it and he still does it). I've just taken him out on a walk and let him off the lead and he came up behind me jumped up and nipped my back, I stuck him back on his lead (calmly) no eye contact, no talking to him, all the time I'm trying to get him on his lead he is trying to chew my hand. I have noticed he has very sore gums, but for some reason he prefers to chew on humans rather than plastic/rubber toys. He does enjoy beef tendons to chew on, but he can't have to many of them.
I wish you luck with Ermis, you can almost forgive them anything when they look at you with their big brown eyes and frown at you.
Please can someone explain what a PWD is, this one went straight over the top of my head? :-\  I've just worked it out - a Portuguese Water Dog, are they really more challenging than RR's
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 03:51 AM by Louise n Shumba »

Offline CA in TO

  • Steward
  • Confirmed Ridgeback Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 679
  • Biscuits: 101
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2009, 05:24 PM »
PWD = Portuguese Water Dog
Carol Ann Brown, Toronto
Proud mama of Pukka Sara & Trouble

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts"

Offline machem

  • Member of RAA
  • ****
  • Posts: 1446
  • Biscuits: 106
  • JC (D) whelped 11/14/06 June (B) whelped 8/5/07
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2009, 06:22 PM »
In some ways our Portie is more challenging than the RRs were, in some ways much easier.  RRs don't bark every time they want something. ;)  Willie chews on more things, but he is also easier to stop once he starts. 

Overall I think RRs are more challenging.  PWDs will mind, and they have a desire to follow commands and please their owner.

Cheers

Mike
Mike McCallum and the Terrible Two: J.C. (dog) and June (bitch) and Willie (the alien PWD)
Elk Grove, CA USA
twitter; flickr; family

Offline sylvie83

  • Potential Ridgeback Addict
  • **
  • Posts: 185
  • Biscuits: -7
  • Manayakaya Bakari aka KIMBA
    • Rhodesian Ridgeback de l'Ecume des Jours
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2009, 05:54 AM »
Overall I think RRs are more challenging.  PWDs will mind, and they have a desire to follow commands and please their owner.Mike
Apart from "normal" puppy naughtiness my Kimba is eager to please . She's the only one at puppy school not to function with treats or the clicker thing but with lavish praise on my part  :)

Offline machem

  • Member of RAA
  • ****
  • Posts: 1446
  • Biscuits: 106
  • JC (D) whelped 11/14/06 June (B) whelped 8/5/07
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2009, 01:21 PM »
Well, I will say that when our RRs went to class, they were the best-behaved/best trained, with a couple outbursts from JC thrown in.  But I think that's more a function of US rather than the dogs.

Willie will go to class soon, and he will make the other dogs and puppies look awful, I'm sure.  Lynn has him dialed in.  He is much better at this point (12-13 weeks) than June or JC were.  I think some of that is him, and some is our experience.  We simply know what to do at about a 99% level now.

Cheers

Mike
Mike McCallum and the Terrible Two: J.C. (dog) and June (bitch) and Willie (the alien PWD)
Elk Grove, CA USA
twitter; flickr; family

Offline Lekana

  • Confirmed Ridgeback Addict
  • ***
  • Posts: 697
  • Biscuits: 1
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2009, 01:49 PM »
Ridgeback puppies are never easy...some may be easier than others, but in general, breeders NEED to educate their puppy buyers.  As stated above, there are a TON of "methods" which people say they have employed to correct certain behaviors...

The simple fact is...any and all of those methods can still be fine...the actual TRICK is to follow through.  It is NOT the method, it is the ATTITUDE and the PERSEVERENCE of that new owner.

I don't like the word "stubborn" but it may pop out sometimes....ridgebacks are a "dominant-oriented" breed, meaning that if YOU don't take control, they are more than happy to.  In my time in this breed, one thing remains clear, no matter WHAT term you like to use...is that if your ridgeback realizes YOU have more perseverence than he/she does, your life with your ridgeback will ultimately become VERY EASY. 

Ridgebacks can spot weaknesses in your character very quickly, and conversely they can recognize a strong leader.  It doesn't even matter about a specific "problem."  Any and all problems can and will be eventually resolved with the right attitude and strong perseverence on the owner's part. 

This simple fact is WHY this is not a breed for everybody.  These are not Labradors or Golden's with a ridge.  This is an independent, THINKING, dog, and one that requires an owner on their toes to outstmart a ridgeback. 

Biting and charging is not something you "wait" for to change in an older puppy.  This is something to be addressed NOW.  Hoping for good behavior doesn't make it happen.  Just because you try something one or two times doesn't mean it doesn't work...in the mind of a ridgeback it simply means...HA!  I out-smarted them again!  Actual training doesn't mean anything in this regard...it truly is ATTITUDE.

JMO,
Shara

Offline kitoyogi

  • Member of RAA
  • ****
  • Posts: 1436
  • Biscuits: 98
  • Why walk when you can bounce?
    • Kito Rhodesian Ridgebacks
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2009, 04:47 PM »
One theory I have heard is that if you keep puppies with their littermates longer, they learn better bite inhibition from their littermates.  I am wondering if this is true, and am considering testing it with my pups and keeping them until they are 11 weeks.  This is not so hard with just three pups which I can still adequately socialize during this important time.  The real test would be with a larger litter, sending some home at the normal 9 weeks and the rest at 11 or 12 weeks and see if the theory is remotely true.  It's anecdotal at best with such a small sample but could be interesting.
MaryAnne Draper
www.kitoridgebacks.com

Offline Louise n Shumba

  • Ridgeback Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Biscuits: 3
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2009, 05:43 PM »
One theory I have heard is that if you keep puppies with their littermates longer, they learn better bite inhibition from their littermates.  I am wondering if this is true, and am considering testing it with my pups and keeping them until they are 11 weeks.  This is not so hard with just three pups which I can still adequately socialize during this important time.  The real test would be with a larger litter, sending some home at the normal 9 weeks and the rest at 11 or 12 weeks and see if the theory is remotely true.  It's anecdotal at best with such a small sample but could be interesting.
I think there may be something in it, I collected Shumba at a day over 7 weeks and I think it was to early. He also doesn't get a lot of what I call natural socialising - most of it is on lead and dogs behave so differently when they are on leads, he is far more submissive off lead towards other dogs, but many people I meet on dog walks as soon as they see another dog they instantly put their dog back on the lead  :-\

Keep us posted on the results of your test, it would be also intersting to see if it affects how well they bond with their adoptive family, because it is a commonly held view that puppies become more wary at around 12 weeks and it is important that they are introduced to plenty of stimuli before twelve weeks.

Regards

Louise
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 05:50 PM by Louise n Shumba »

Offline retropian

  • Ridgeback Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 45
  • Biscuits: -1
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2009, 08:10 PM »
One theory I have heard is that if you keep puppies with their littermates longer, they learn better bite inhibition from their littermates.  I am wondering if this is true, and am considering testing it with my pups and keeping them until they are 11 weeks.  This is not so hard with just three pups which I can still adequately socialize during this important time.  The real test would be with a larger litter, sending some home at the normal 9 weeks and the rest at 11 or 12 weeks and see if the theory is remotely true.  It's anecdotal at best with such a small sample but could be interesting.

I have to agree. I got Franklin at 12 weeks and he's wonderfully socialized. The breeder had allowed past puppies to be adopted at 8 weeks, but her daughter, who is the co-breeder wanted them to stay until 12weeks for better socialization and bite inhibition. It seems to have worked. I met the breeder at a location that was new and strange to Franklin and she was amazed at how at ease he was compared to past puppies that had been homed at an earlier age. He still play bites, he's only 13 weeks, but has hardly left a scratch or tooth mark on me.

Offline kitoyogi

  • Member of RAA
  • ****
  • Posts: 1436
  • Biscuits: 98
  • Why walk when you can bounce?
    • Kito Rhodesian Ridgebacks
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2009, 02:35 AM »
There are some great articles on it.

Here is one the show the different stages that pups go through.  I think I have posted on here before but who knows where.  This one does actually talk about pups going to their new homes at 7 weeks but I think that is really old school.

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html


On this link, if you scroll down to Puppy Rearing, you will see three links to pdfs for:
Why Not Seven Weeks?
Producing Behaviorally Sound Dogs
Giving Puppies a Head Start.
http://www.rhodesianridgebackhealth.org/breederscorner.html

Why Not Seven Weeks suggests that puppies enter a fear stage from week 7 to week 9, and that by week 10 you have a pretty good indication for temperament.

I do not think it is true that puppies will not bond or will be fearful if adopted after 12 weeks.  Some friends of mine got their first RR when he was 16 weeks old, and he is very sound and very much bonded to them. 

I plan to start leash and crate training with the pups, and lots of socialization.  With a litter of three that is pretty easy to do.
MaryAnne Draper
www.kitoridgebacks.com

Offline Lekana

  • Confirmed Ridgeback Addict
  • ***
  • Posts: 697
  • Biscuits: 1
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2009, 02:40 PM »
I guess my turn for thinking this topic has gone awry from it's original topic....

As someone that has raised puppies far beyond the time they should go to their new homes, thus receiving specific "training" this isn't the question....it is about one person's problem with an overly enthusiastic biter....

And in that vein...my post still applies...regardless of time spent with a litter, or time spent with the dam, basic behavior still dictates and there ARE remedies to stop undo biting problems.  While there may  be "optimum" times for this and that regarding puppies, we should not insinuate that just because optimum times were met, that any given puppy shouldn't or can't learn what is acceptable.

Shara

Offline Louise n Shumba

  • Ridgeback Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Biscuits: 3
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2009, 02:58 PM »
I'm sure if you read the thread from start to finish it's more than one person's problem with biting, several of us have a problem and yes some of us are inexperienced owners, but experience comes with time and we all have to begin somewhere. I appreciate all the helpful advice I have gained from this thread and equally it is reassuring to know that I'm not the only one with this problem. Hopefully with patience and perseverance it will get better, I love my puppy and the last thing I want is him to continue in his current vein and really hurt someone, that's not good for him or anyone.
Sometimes I wonder whether my approach is wrong or yes whether he left his littermates (not necessarily the dam) to early. That aside I still have a problem and no amount of hindsight will help :(

Offline caro

  • Kennel Manager
  • RAA Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5390
  • Biscuits: 211
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2009, 03:30 PM »
Shara has a good point.  It doesn't have anything to do with how long a puppy is left with its littermates.  Some are biters and some are not.  Some are a bit more stubborn about learning and others are not.

I have always let my puppies go at 8 weeks of age.  Some have biting problems and usually they have bene overcome with some firm and consistent correction, but again, the stubborn ones need a bit more than others.

Hintza spent the first year of his life living in the kennel with his great uncle Mac.  He has the softest mouth imagineable and I don't recall him ever having a biting problem.  But it wasn't his mother who taught him because she didn't spend a lot of time with him (My bitches are not very maternal, preferring to wait to be grandmothers before enjoying the pups!)  Hintza's brother returned to us at about 9 months and he had a horrible biting habit.  It took a few weeks of loud shouts when he bit and ignoring him but he learned quickly that biting was not going to get him what he wanted.  He also had a horrible jumping problem because his owners never trained him properly, and it took some quite harsh corrections to stop him doing that--of course by the time he came back he was quite a large muscular dog so what might have been easy while he was a puppy became much harder with an almost adult dog.

So long and short of this is be consistent, firm and fair and your puppy will learn; they are in general very bright and know when their behavior is not going to work to get them what they want.  So hang in there.  This too will pass.

Caroline

Offline VRed

  • Potential Ridgeback Addict
  • **
  • Posts: 310
  • Biscuits: 32
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2009, 10:03 PM »
Clyde bites, too.  We are working on it, and I definitely see a progress, especially with me and my son, my daughter is a different story... However, I saw something today that baffled me ??? Clyde met a 3 month old boxer puppy today, started playing - this was the first time I ever saw Clyde "play" with another dog - we are not allowed to have our dogs interact at the puppy class, and I don't know anyone with puppies around me, unfortunately.  Anyway...the boxer pup was biting Clyde on his ears, his cheeks, neck...Clyde, thoughout the whole play session, never opened his mouth! He was playing, and was definitely excited and enjoying himself, wrestling with the other pup, but it's like he knew that biting while playing is a no no.  Yet how come he doesn't know that when he is playing with people?!
Aima
Crestridge Right Turn Clyde, HIC JC
Dykumos Deives Makya, HIC

Offline kitoyogi

  • Member of RAA
  • ****
  • Posts: 1436
  • Biscuits: 98
  • Why walk when you can bounce?
    • Kito Rhodesian Ridgebacks
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2009, 10:19 PM »
Your puppy class doesn't have puppy playtime? 

BTW while playing is normal, this is where puppies learn how hard is too hard.  Even adult Ridgebacks will play bite at faces but they do so softly.
MaryAnne Draper
www.kitoridgebacks.com

Offline machem

  • Member of RAA
  • ****
  • Posts: 1446
  • Biscuits: 106
  • JC (D) whelped 11/14/06 June (B) whelped 8/5/07
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2009, 01:25 AM »
Some people on the PWD list were complaining that puppy classes had puppy play time at all when it should be more structured.  They didn't want their puppies batted around by all those labs and goldens.

It sounded much worse in person.

I think the best solution to a biter puppy is a couple of older Ridgebacks willing to help train. :)

Cheers

Mike
Mike McCallum and the Terrible Two: J.C. (dog) and June (bitch) and Willie (the alien PWD)
Elk Grove, CA USA
twitter; flickr; family

Offline caro

  • Kennel Manager
  • RAA Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5390
  • Biscuits: 211
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2009, 04:15 AM »
Puppy classes have to be fun.  Puppy attention span is very short and if it isn't fun for them, then they get bored and "zone out" learning nothing.  I don't know of a puppy class that I attended that didn't have a period of play at some point during the class.  But since all the puppies were of the same, or similar age, there wasn't really a problem, even the shy retiring ones eventually joined in.

And yes, having a couple of older RRs train your pup is the best way, though they don't necessarily need to be related. 

Caroline

Offline kitoyogi

  • Member of RAA
  • ****
  • Posts: 1436
  • Biscuits: 98
  • Why walk when you can bounce?
    • Kito Rhodesian Ridgebacks
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2009, 01:21 PM »
All puppy classes I have been to have allowed puppy play time at the end of class as a reward.
MaryAnne Draper
www.kitoridgebacks.com

Offline Lekana

  • Confirmed Ridgeback Addict
  • ***
  • Posts: 697
  • Biscuits: 1
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2009, 02:22 PM »
Keep in mind that "puppy play time" if that means just throw all the puppies in the middle of the room and let them play, can have dire consequences with some ridgebacks.

Ridgebacks, even puppy ridgebacks, have long memories, and whether WE think a behavior is innocuous, our puppy may not.  I don't like certain "puppy classes" for this very reason...

There are very real "fear periods" in a puppy's life...and there are also breed specific attitudes which can be more apparent in some breeds.  I'm a firm believer in socialization...but I am MORE of an advocate of VERY STRUCTURED socialization.

You have the right, if you are in a puppy class that eventually culminates in all puppies being thrown in the middle of a ring to play to bow out of such activities...and don't be afraid of being the only one.  I, personally, would never do this to one of my puppies.

There are a lot of ways to properly socialize puppies, and just as many ways to screw up a good puppy if you don't have full control of a situation.

Just my opinion.
Shara

Offline LauraO

  • Potential Ridgeback Addict
  • **
  • Posts: 229
  • Biscuits: 3
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2009, 10:40 PM »
I don't have my dog yet but having seen 7 week olds, I wonder if that is TOO young to give to a new owner on its own? They are still such babies, and as long as the breeder is willing to socialize and work with them to assure their continued success in the world, I would think 12 weeks would be a better age to let them go. The conversations on how these pups need socilization with other dogs seems to back that up.

Thoughts?

There are some great articles on it.

Here is one the show the different stages that pups go through.  I think I have posted on here before but who knows where.  This one does actually talk about pups going to their new homes at 7 weeks but I think that is really old school.

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html


On this link, if you scroll down to Puppy Rearing, you will see three links to pdfs for:
Why Not Seven Weeks?
Producing Behaviorally Sound Dogs
Giving Puppies a Head Start.
http://www.rhodesianridgebackhealth.org/breederscorner.html

Why Not Seven Weeks suggests that puppies enter a fear stage from week 7 to week 9, and that by week 10 you have a pretty good indication for temperament.

I do not think it is true that puppies will not bond or will be fearful if adopted after 12 weeks.  Some friends of mine got their first RR when he was 16 weeks old, and he is very sound and very much bonded to them. 

I plan to start leash and crate training with the pups, and lots of socialization.  With a litter of three that is pretty easy to do.

Offline LauraO

  • Potential Ridgeback Addict
  • **
  • Posts: 229
  • Biscuits: 3
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2009, 10:43 PM »
Inever understood how yelping could help curb biting, especially in a dominant breed. I think when they are shown stopping, it's just momentary shock and distraction, but I don't think they expect it's a reason to stop.

I've seen pups play and  lil' guy that just yelps and does nothing else is going to be the Omega dog quickly.  You always hear the term "alpha' but no one ever says Omega, which is the bottom dog in the pack. In wolves, this can be one heck of a henpecked scapegoat.

I also often hear how squeaky toys resemble prey being attacked. I mean, doesn't yelping sound the same???   ???  I sure think so. Should a leader be yelping like prey? Seems contradictory and weak to me.

Help!  I have a feeling that the correct answer is "she's 3 months old"  However, by girl can get into a mode where she is nips and bites pretty hard.  She is better with me but is a lot worse with my girlfriend.  I have tried a lot of the techniques that I have read in various books.  I've tried yelping, I've tried holding her mouth closed, and turning my back to her and ignoring her.  For the most part these don't seem to have a big impact on her. 

This biting thing seems to have too levels... a low intensity level that is manageable and then a hi intensity mode that happens at about 10pm ever night when she wakes up from here nap or in the morning when she wakes up.  In those hi intensity moments she is a little psycho where the normal corrective actions don't seem to work and only spool her up even more.  When she gets real spooled up she will bark, bite and growl at me. 

Do you guys have any suggestions about the biting and maybe more importantly about how to calm her down.  I have enough pain tolerance to try and hold her in check but I am worried about how to correct her if she gets in this mode around others.

Offline Louise n Shumba

  • Ridgeback Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Biscuits: 3
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2009, 08:45 AM »
Inever understood how yelping could help curb biting, especially in a dominant breed. I think when they are shown stopping, it's just momentary shock and distraction, but I don't think they expect it's a reason to stop.

I've seen pups play and  lil' guy that just yelps and does nothing else is going to be the Omega dog quickly.  You always hear the term "alpha' but no one ever says Omega, which is the bottom dog in the pack. In wolves, this can be one heck of a henpecked scapegoat.

I also often hear how squeaky toys resemble prey being attacked. I mean, doesn't yelping sound the same???   ???  I sure think so. Should a leader be yelping like prey? Seems contradictory and weak to me.


I haven't found yelping particularly helpful. I have what I would describe as a Dog with a strong personality, and at 5 months we are still having problems with biting and jumping and biting. I didn't find leaving the room very helpful either, I always think it's like I'm turning tail and retreating. We have now set aside our downstairs cloakroom as an isolation area, it can't be his crate for obvious reasons (previously we had used the garden but this didn't work because he just got distracted by everything in the garden and promptly forgot why he was out there). It is still a work in progress and timing and patience is everything - I will let you know how it goes.
PS once I have cracked it my cloakroom will need redecorating, I have paw prints and scratches 5ft up the wall and we have removed toilet roll, towels, soap, cleaners - toilet seat is firmly closed and we have to lock the door from the outside because he can open the door.
PPS I only leave him until he has calmed down and after a further 10 seconds we let him out, if he tries to bite when we attach his lead/leash to lead him out - in he goes again. ::)

Offline machem

  • Member of RAA
  • ****
  • Posts: 1446
  • Biscuits: 106
  • JC (D) whelped 11/14/06 June (B) whelped 8/5/07
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2009, 08:51 AM »
I think in a more dominant dog, or a leader, a yelp is often followed by a stronger response such as a baring of teeth, a growl, a  snap, or more.  I see it all the time here;  my adult male will often yelp when one of the other two nip or bite him, but usually it is followed by a correction from him.  The yelp is a warning in more than one dimension, I think.

Cheers

Mike
Mike McCallum and the Terrible Two: J.C. (dog) and June (bitch) and Willie (the alien PWD)
Elk Grove, CA USA
twitter; flickr; family

Offline Vince

  • Confirmed Ridgeback Addict
  • ***
  • Posts: 527
  • Biscuits: 89
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2009, 09:55 AM »
I went through the same phase with Kona. The only thing that worked a little was to get up and leave, end of play session. She has out grown it thankfully. Hang in there.

Offline georgejr

  • Potential Ridgeback Addict
  • **
  • Posts: 445
  • Biscuits: 5
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2009, 12:49 PM »
I haven't found yelping particularly helpful. I have what I would describe as a Dog with a strong personality, and at 5 months we are still having problems with biting and jumping and biting.

i have 1 main rule with my dogs:
they NEVER get to bark at me or bite me.

when,as a puppy, that happened i did the alpha roll, screamed in their face and looked them dead in the eye and layed it on heavy.

for the next 10 minutes they wouldnt even look at me.
i had to do it two more times to my boy but only once with my girl.

that is the most sever punishment i will dole out to what i consider the most severe infraction.

NO BITING ME or BARKING AT ME EVER!!!
Mutare Ridgebacks

Offline sylvie83

  • Potential Ridgeback Addict
  • **
  • Posts: 185
  • Biscuits: -7
  • Manayakaya Bakari aka KIMBA
    • Rhodesian Ridgeback de l'Ecume des Jours
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2009, 03:58 PM »
I totally agree with you  :)

Offline caro

  • Kennel Manager
  • RAA Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5390
  • Biscuits: 211
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2009, 04:12 PM »
I think you have to be very careful with the alpha roll though I agree with you George that biting and barking at me is absolutely not acceptable.  With puppies, I think it is a game.  Biting ankles is fun because inevitably the person whose ankles are being bitten will jump around and run off and so begins the chase.  Biting hands is a means of attracting attention.  I found that taking my hands out of reach and walking away was the best way to deal with this because what they want is a game, and if I walk out of the run or room, the game is over.  With ankles, I used to bend down and shout very loudly in his face, detach my ankles and walk away while he was still sitting there wondering what I had been shouting about.  It doesn't take long for them to learn and it is a stage usually unless they learn that it brings them what they want.  Frustration is something that needs to be addressed differently, and I am not sure shutting in the cloakroom is the solution.  It's a pity you don't have a crate, but it sounds like the dog is getting overexcited, so the solution would be to be extremely calm around him when putting on the leash to go for a walk or patting him and avoid any rough housing which might cause him to become overexcited. 

A yelp is a little more than a puppy yelp.  It's rather loud and will make the puppy sit up and take notice at which point you say "game over" and walk away.  If he wants to play then it has to be on my terms and not on his.

Caroline

Offline retropian

  • Ridgeback Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 45
  • Biscuits: -1
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2009, 04:30 AM »
Well, I initally said Franklin wasn't a biter, and he wasn't at 12 weeks, but in the past couple of weeks he's been engaging in very much the same behavior everyone here has been describing. I know he is playing, but at times it's a bit much. If he gets too rough a good firm NO! and turning away/ending playtime usually stops him. If he continues then I'll put him outside for 10 minutes or so. I think from reading this thread, it is just normal puppy behavior that he'll grow out of, sooner rather than later I hope. Until then just be consistent with the no. and ending play.

Offline sylvie83

  • Potential Ridgeback Addict
  • **
  • Posts: 185
  • Biscuits: -7
  • Manayakaya Bakari aka KIMBA
    • Rhodesian Ridgeback de l'Ecume des Jours
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2009, 06:29 AM »
Honestly I fail to understand how you guys put up wih this biting behaviour .....
OK I'm a newbie with my RR ( 5 1/2 months old ) who incidentally was the most dominant in her litter , I had to convince her breeder that I could manage her ............
But I've raised dobermanns and a beauceron ( not to mention pore placid breeds )
Biting either in "play" or as a response to constraint = a big slap and NO
End of story !

Offline Lekana

  • Confirmed Ridgeback Addict
  • ***
  • Posts: 697
  • Biscuits: 1
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2009, 01:02 PM »
Now that the topic has been moved into more of a “human” aspect…I’ll simply relate my experiences in that matter.  I stand by my views concerning other DOGS.

I’ll just say, I have seen more ridgebacks ruined by such rigid opinions of “biting” a human and correcting that, than the taking of a more relaxed approach.  It truly comes down to what each person thinks of as a “bite.” 

In my opinion, in such an open forum, there is no “pat” answer because every puppy is different, every line is different, and quite frankly PEOPLE are different. 

Puppies use their mouths…it is how they learn.  I can go out in a yard with 10 seven week old puppies, and they ALL nip at my legs, they unfortunately can tear my “lounge pants” because teeth get caught and they simply rip fabric.  Do I “turn on them” and exert “my dominance” because I am annoyed they have ripped my pants?  I guess I CAN, but are they LEARNING anything, except for the fact I am “being mean” for something they may not understand?

The whole aspect with very young puppies, BEFORE they go to their new homes and learning bite inhibition is very subtle, and it ISN’T a pat answer. 

With older puppies, likewise, it is also subtle, and it requires knowing the background of those puppies.  Throwing a 4 month old puppy on the ground and screaming at it for a nip that YOU might think is a dominant act, when the puppy itself had no “ill-intent” can be extremely detrimental to that puppy.  It is easy to get in your head when someone (likely your breeder or dog club fellow member) says that any “teeth on skin” is a “bite” and must be “dealt with.” 

Yes, teaching bite inhibition, and YES, teaching certain things about mouthing are important, but some of the “techniques” I have read about above quite frankly lack a basic understanding of our breed, and of puppies in general. 

Just as an example, I have a 10 month old male who has NEVER exhibited a dominant bone in his body, (beyond his earlier puppy antics) but lately, he has it in his mind when I am walking down the hallway or going to the kitchen, etc, that he thinks it is “fun” to grab my arm in his teeth, with little or no pressure.  OH MY GAWD…he is trying to “dominate me!”  I guess I should throw him on his back and scream and glare at him right? 

No…in my mind, ABSOLUTELY NOT!  He’s simply an active young puppy, testing out some weird little game in his mind.  If I simply ignore THAT game, and engage him in a more appropriate game, I have preserved his pro-active nature, and certainly don’t terrorize him into thinking engaging in “self-thought” is horrible. 

There is a huge difference in how you “protect” them from other dogs and how you “protect” or train them with people, and with people, it is a matter of an innate ability to read intent…and an innate ability to read the signs and act appropriately and not give into “pat” answers.

Just my opinion,
Shara

Offline Nixxon

  • Ridgeback Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Biscuits: 2
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2009, 02:37 PM »
I agree with that, my dog has never exhibited dominant behavior to me but always wants to play with me if I sit on the ground near her to pet her.

She likes to bite and nip but doesn't ever bark or establish dominance.

She has taken to eating out of the littler box, jumping and swatting people with paws and counter surfing. Several times I have lost my temper and probably swatted her a bit too hard but now when I come down the stairs and she's doing one of those things she immediately runs into her crate. She knows she has done something bad. Which is what I want her to understand, at this point its probably just her puppy curiosity that is taking over and she can't help herself.

Shes very intelligent and I think she will eventually grow out of these behaviors but right now shes pushing the limits to see what she can get away with.

Offline sylvie83

  • Potential Ridgeback Addict
  • **
  • Posts: 185
  • Biscuits: -7
  • Manayakaya Bakari aka KIMBA
    • Rhodesian Ridgeback de l'Ecume des Jours
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2009, 12:31 AM »
I just wanted to reassure Lekana, my puppy is neither ruined nor terrorized  ;D
There are people out there who do have the necessary experience and empathy to raise a puppy correctly .......
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 12:51 AM by sylvie83 »

Offline Lekana

  • Confirmed Ridgeback Addict
  • ***
  • Posts: 697
  • Biscuits: 1
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2009, 01:55 PM »
Sylvie, you certainly don’t need to “reassure” me.  I don’t know you, so I certainly am not speaking to you directly.  However, I may have inadvertently responded to words that you wrote, being:  “Honestly I fail to understand how you guys put up wih this biting behaviour .....”  And I simply think there is a difference between “biting behavior” and true dominance.

The simple fact is that Ridgebacks are not Dobermans, nor are they Beauceron’s.  Just as I originated from German Shepherd Dogs and various Setter’s doesn’t mean necessarily you can equate, nor DEAL WITH ridgebacks the same as you do with other dogs you had in the past.

FOR SURE, I once thought (many, many years ago) that ANY teeth of a dog on a human was a bad thing, but I simply don’t think that now, simply because I UNDERSTAND the mind of the ridgeback.  This thought, similar to yours, was consecrated because of ONE instance I knew about where “biting behavior” got out of control from ONE ridgeback owner.

After a couple of decades in this breed, after owning many other breeds, I know this behavior is NOT in of itself, necessarily a “bad” thing.  My training mentor, who held seminars throughout the country, and who was an ultra-positive trainer related a story as a preface to discussing “weird behaviors” in this breed…talked about her human son that exhibited the “abhorrent” behavior of licking the revolving belt at the grocery store.  He was 5 years old…and she related the fact that OF COURSE that behavior, while interesting to him at the time simply would not be a behavior deemed acceptable even to HIM a year later. 

Do you yell at the child for doing something abhorrent TO US, yet to HIM was simply a matter of innate discovery?  Fast forward to one of her seminars where a Gordon Setter COULDN’T help himself and attempted to maul this trainer because she held a juicy treat in her hand.  Slobber flying everywhere…but this trainer held her ground…that “mouthy” dog ONLY got the treat when he politely sat in front of her. 

Like I said, Sylvie, I don’t know you, so I don’t know whether or not your puppy has been ruined or terrorized.  But what I DO know is that people shouldn’t necessarily take to heart your term of “biting behavior” because it simply isn’t as simple as that.  And in my mind, we shouldn’t automatically assume our ridgebacks are being dominant in the face of simple “water testing” of games.  A more SUBTLE approach, in my mind is a LOT more beneficial in preserving the complex mind of our hounds.

Shara

Offline joecop

  • Potential Ridgeback Addict
  • **
  • Posts: 284
  • Biscuits: 52
    • Ridgeback pictures.
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2009, 05:21 PM »
If I may make a suggestion Shara,  the fact that you CAPITALIZE certain word for emphasis might come off as a bit judgmental and a bit preachy.  I know it does to me and I have no dog in this fight.  ( I got to use that in a dog forum, yea!)

Joe   
Joe.

Offline sylvie83

  • Potential Ridgeback Addict
  • **
  • Posts: 185
  • Biscuits: -7
  • Manayakaya Bakari aka KIMBA
    • Rhodesian Ridgeback de l'Ecume des Jours
Re: Biting Problem
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2009, 06:48 AM »
The simple fact is that Ridgebacks are not Dobermans, nor are they Beauceron’s. 
Shara
No kidding  ;D