Author Topic: Advice Please!!!  (Read 1360 times)

Offline clhayter

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Advice Please!!!
« on: March 20, 2009, 04:59 PM »
Hi. I'm new to owning a ridgeback, and I could definitely use some advice. We aren't new to owning dogs(irish setter and lab), but Rogue (3 month old ridgeback) is a handful and not like any other dog we have had.  I have read two training books, and before we got her, I was pretty confident that while it was going to be a challenge, I/my fiance were going to be just fine.

Well, a month later and I have to say that we are struggling with her. If I am upfront, I want to say that If anyone has any advice for us, I would be grateful, because I feel like we are in over our head. Especially me since I am 5'4 and smaller, while my fiance is 6'4 with a deep booming voice. So even when he isn't mad at her, he is very commanding. We are starting puppy classes as well, so hopefully that will help

1. Rogue has a big problem with biting/nipping. I really notice this after she eats, or later at night around 8-10pm. When she bites what I have been doing is say a loud no, and putting a chew toy in front of her instead. I have also tried ignoring her and walking into another room and shutting the door, holding her mouth closed, and most recently, turning her over on her back and literally laying on her. I feel like she is doing it for attention, not out of meaness. I know I need to show her who is boss. All of the above except the laying on her, causes her to become more excited, bark and bite more and think it's a fun game. For example after we are done playing, I say no more, i give her a toy, I walk away. A few minutes later, I walk by and she comes charging at me and jumps and bites my legs/ankles. In the last two days, I think she is biting less.This could be because I am laying on her/holding her down now. Oh, and she does have plenty of play time where we are showing her attention. In the morning before work, at lunch time and after dinner. But sometimes I just want to sit down by myself and relax. What do you think? Is that the correct thing to do?

2. And the second thing we have never faced is the amount of crying/sobbing/howling she does. We are crate training her and that is going very well. We feed her in her crate and she gets treats in her crate (like kong). And when we put her in her crate when we leave in the morning, or after lunch, she cries, but it is a cry that is more like a whimper. She knows that she has to go back to sleep. The problem is in the morning/middle of the night. She typically gets put out between 10 and 11pm. Then she has consistantly woken up between 4:30 and 5am. We take her out and put her back in her crate. Most days this is when she cries/howls. And we know not to take her out, because the behavior will continue. Well, she continues to cry for up to an hour. I have no idea how she can do that for such a long time. We have been losing a lot of sleep, and even if we move her crate, our house is small we would still hear her. And the other problem is, I workout in the morning. I swim, run, etc. I can't take her running yet, so i go alone. But even with my alarm on low, and my clothes to change in another room, she still hears me. And we would have usually taken her out about an hour earlier. So we don't think she has to go to the bathroom. And then she starts crying. After i get back from my run, she is still crying, or my fiance, not able to handle it anymore, puts her in the bed with him (this is usually after a half an hour). We just don't know what to do? What are we doing wrong?

Thanks for reading all of this and for any advice you may have.

Offline caro

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2009, 06:37 PM »
Some RR puppies can be a real handfull.  It sounds like yours is one of them.  Re. the biting, she thinks that it is definitely a game and she wants the game to continue.  When she bites, shout at her "ouch" pull your hand away and totally ignore her.  Do not give her a toy because that is rewarding bad behavior.   She is probably also cutting teeth which may make her be more "mouthy".  Get her some bones from the butcher and let her chew on them.  They may be a bit messy, but they will help with teething problems.

Re. the howling, this again is a means of getting your attention.  Try putting a cover over the crate so that it is totally covered and dark.  If you have it in another room, try putting a soft playing radio nearby.  You are going to have to persevere I fear but it shouldn't take more than a few days before she gets the message. 

Good luck, and please feel free to ask questions.  Somebody on this list is surely going to be able to help.  We've all gone through similar stages of adolescence.

Caroline

Puppy class will certainly help.  Perhaps your breeder may have some suggestions.

Offline Louise n Shumba

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2009, 06:37 PM »
Your not alone, my puppy is just 10 weeks old and can't seem to help himself. I will tell him no bite, sometimes he will back off, but if he is in one of those moods he will just keep coming back for more. Pinning him down makes him fight more and he will not submit, I tend to try and distract him and walk away and leave him to calm down or put him in his puppy pen for time out. I don't feel I always deal with him particularly well and I do get frustrated and I know I shouldn't, especially when he goes for my children. When we first got him he was really cuddly, but now he just goes to bite us when you try to stroke him or invite him for a cuddle :'(.
Sorry, I don't have any solutions, but I'm told it does improve ???

Offline shodyL

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2009, 08:34 PM »
We used to spray ourselves down with bitter apple spray....  he hated the taste and it helped a lot.  even our shoes or we couldn't sit in peace...  He did grow out of it.  I myself did use the give him a toy instead routine...  in the theory that it would teach him what he could bite on.  And his reward for biting the toy was continued play!  If he still tried to bite us, he got ignored...  when you don't have time for her, and don't want to play, put her in the crate with a yummy bone or filled kong. 

Remember, at 3 months she is still very much a baby.  She doesn't understand yet, so try to have patience.  I know it's hard. 

The howling in the crate is a maturity thing too.  But so you know, my adult dogs will not be quiet in the crate in the morning if they hear me up...  Once Mom's up it's time toget out!!  So that may be asking a lot of a puppy...  do you have an exercise pen?  so she could be up, yet contained?  it may help.

It will pass...  and then you will be missing these puppy days...  I do...


Shody    ---My Two Babies--Leonidas & Meile!---

Offline TDprange

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2009, 05:51 PM »
our problems are almost identical to mine.  She is now 13 weeks and is much better behaved.  I would like to say that it is because of my training prowess but in reality it is because she is out of her mind tired most of the time now.  She is at a doggie day care place during the week now and by the time I get her home she is beyond tired.  She also did the crazy dog thing at night around the times you said.  Out trainer said that it is a sign that it might be bed time.  I might agree.  My Lucy always gets really bitey when she is really tired and won't go to sleep.  Its kinda like a kid getting bratty when they are exhausted and missed their nap time.
Trent Prange
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Offline kitoyogi

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2009, 07:01 PM »
Part of it is just due to normal puppy behavior and also in part teething.  There is some theory that breeders should hang on to the pups until they are 12 weeks old, in part, so that the littermates will teach each other bite inhibition.  Xhabbo was terrible about biting, and she did out grow it.  I had plenty of chew treats/bones for her to gnaw on.  If you do it correctly, giving the puppy a toy or chew treat when they are biting isn't "rewarding" the biting behavior but "redirecting" it.  To often puppies/dogs are doing what is "natural" to them but not acceptable in their human environment.  They do need to learn what is acceptable and unacceptable but too often the puppy/dog is only told "No" and never given any direction for appropriate behavior/activities.  I found that redirecting the mouthy/biting behavior to a chew treat/bone/toy to be very successful.   

Puppies/dogs are a lot more manipulative (not sure that is the right word) than we think.  It goes back to associative learning (Pavlovian).  Cry and whine so loud that "help" comes and saves the puppy from being alone (cause and effect).  It is a natural instinct in the canine to cry for the pack with they are distressed.  So basically the puppy has trained you to respond to the crying (not uncommon as it is hard to resist).  It will take perseverance to overcome this part.  Some pups are worse about it than others.  Sometimes leaving a radio on helps.  Is the crate in the bedroom with you?  If not, that may help.  The cover is a good idea too.

Some dogs learn that attention is attention, whether it is good or bad. 

How much exercise is she getting every day?  To tire out my very energetic puppy, I used one of these:
http://www.jumpinweasel.com/
You can find this at horse supplies stores - it is called a lunge whip but the very same concept but without the toy attached.  It is excellent for tiring a puppy out.  I use grocery store bags tied on to it which is similar to lure coursing.  I would do this several times a day for short periods (average 10 minutes).  When they are old enough to go to public places than I would take them out on more walks and socialization exercises.

I'd be careful about laying on top of a puppy that young to restrain her. 
MaryAnne Draper
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Offline clhayter

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2009, 10:01 PM »
Thank you all so much for your info. Just knowing that other are going through the same thing, or have gone through it and survived helps so much. Since I have written she hasn't been crying as much, so that it good. And when I say laying on her, I am not crushing her, just holding her down enough to know who is boss. I could never hurt her.

She is getting as much exercise as she can right now. She is not supposed to be outside, where there are dogs we don't know yet. We play out in the yard, and she loves to chase things inside. When she has all of her shots, we will definitely be taking her for walks as long as her age allows. We are also inviting friends with dogs around her age over (and who are properly vaccinated) to play. She loves that. I have found a bone that she really likes to chew as well. It's amazing that she sat for 30min chewing this bone. And maybe when she is old enough we can do doggy day care. That way she is able to play all day.

I know things will get better. Some days are easier than others, but she is worth it. Thanks again.

Offline Keeper

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2009, 11:36 PM »
ok, so how is Rogue doing now that she is 10 months old?

Sandra
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Offline Chubosco

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2009, 02:47 PM »
I know this thread is dead but for anyone having a hard time with biting, I was told that in the 7th week of a RR life the mother teaches the puppies how to behave socially. This is when they learn not to nip. You, like me, may have received your puppy too early. My RR had the nipping problem and I just constantly told him "no bite" and he finally got through that stage. It takes a few weeks, it doesn't help that they have the sharpest teeth of any breed!
John

Offline Keeper

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2009, 03:04 PM »
good advice John,
and any thread you are interested in can be re-visited.
However, this member has not been active since June of this year...I am hoping they are having so much fun with their RR that they haven't had time to spend on the forum.   :)

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Offline rrnewbie

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2009, 05:55 PM »
I am having this nipping/charging problem with my pup right now too! He's 12 weeks old and if he is feeling particularly wild (mostly in the morning after a good night's rest), he'll charge me as I walk by, nipping my legs, and nipping them really hard! I tried the yelping and ignoring him, and it worked for a few days, but I think the shock value has worn off. Now, I just try to calmly put him in a sit, and then I hold him there until he calms down. That seems to be working. Funny thing, he doesn't do this at all to my husband?!!??
Is this typical ridgeback behavior? My lab mix would nip as a puppy, but not hard, these are almost bites, one broke the skin. I don't know if it's playing or him trying to assert his dominance over me?? He starts puppy school this weekend so I'll make sure to tell his teacher about it :-)

Offline Shango_Amaan

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2009, 11:32 PM »
I'm no expert but my boy is quite a little nipper too, I have read it is just teething and they grow out of it by 7months......I'm hoping this is true as nothing I have tried worked either, however the last week or so he seems to be getting a little better. I found if I tell people he is out of control biting all the time, he then makes a liar out of me and I have up to a week of minimal biting  ;D.  Good luck with your new puppy.

Offline sylvie83

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2009, 02:03 AM »
I personally don't think this should be allowed in a puppy .....
What about a squirt of water + a very firm NO  :)

Offline Keeper

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2009, 07:41 AM »
I agree that this behavour should not be allowed.
This is one of the handouts I give my puppy buyers and students in my training classes.  I think it explains what, why and how to change that undesirable behaviour before it escalates.
Sandra
 

Why is my puppy nipping and biting? Mouthy biting behaviour in puppies

Although often thought to be a teething behavior, nipping, mouthing and biting in young dogs is generally a form of social play. Teething is more likely to involve gnawing or chewing on household objects. The first thing you must do is provide ample opportunity for play, without biting. Social play with people could involve retrieve games (ball, Frisbee or soft toy), hide n’ seek (with the puppy finding the humans for a treat), chasing after soap bubbles as well as walks, swimming or learning tricks. Although wrestling and tug of war games can be fun, they may lead to play that is too rough or rambunctious.

Puppies need to learn bite inhibition. This is something they start to learn while with their litter mates It is one reason that puppies should not go to new homes until 7 - 8 weeks and they have had time to practice social skills with other dogs. It can therefore be extremely beneficial for the puppy to have regular interactive social play periods with other dogs or puppies in the home or in the neighborhood.

How can I stop play biting?

Provided the dog is receiving adequate play, attention and exercise, you can turn the training to bite inhibition. One of the things that they need to learn is how much pressure from their jaws causes pain. Without this feedback, a puppy does not learn to inhibit the force of its bite. Because all dogs can and will bite at some time, this lesson is vital for human safety.

How is this lesson taught?
When puppies play with each other, if puppy A bites on puppy B too hard, puppy B will yelp. If that does not work, puppy B will leave. This sends the message to puppy A that its’ bites were too hard and if it wishes to continue to play, it needs to be gentle. However, people often do not send this message to their puppy. In the beginning, they often allow the puppy to chew on them without reprimands and the puppy assumes that the behavior is acceptable.

Instead, the message people should send is THAT ALL mouthing and chewing on hands is painful. To do this, often all that is necessary is for ALL family members to emit a sharp "yip" and cease all play and attention immediately. This sends the message to the puppy that the bites are painful and that biting will cause play to be terminated. When consistently administered this will often stop playful biting. This training often works for those family members that are a little more forceful and assertive and who are immediate and consistent in their training. If the puppy persists, chases or immediately repeats the behavior, closing a door or walking over a baby gate to leave the puppy behind can help to teach the puppy that nipping leads to immediate inattention and isolation. In turn, it is very important to praise the puppy for soft gentle play or licking your hands instead of biting. This is the true key to teaching the puppy what is acceptable social and play behavior with humans.

It is important that if you have young children in your family (12 years and under) that ALL interaction, including games, be supervised 100% of the time. Children should simply be NEVER left alone with a dog, no matter how well behaved. Please read our accompanying handout on dogs and kids for more detailed information.

What if yelping does not help?

Other techniques are often suggested for play biting. Some involve harsh discipline, like slapping the puppy under the chin or forcefully holding the mouth closed. REMEMBER, PAIN CAN INCREASE AGGRESSION and cause the puppy to become anxious, fearful or perhaps more excited. These techniques also require that you grab an excited puppy; not an easy thing to do. Some puppies may even misinterpret the owner’s attempts at punishment as rough play, which in turn might lead to an increase in the behavior. PHYSICAL METHODS ARE THEREFORE NOT RECOMMENDED. Owners who cannot inhibit the puppy with a yelp, should use time-outs or a head halter.

The use of a head halter with a remote leash attached allows the puppy to play and chew, but a gentle pull on the leash can immediately and successfully close the mouth and stop biting without any physical force. By simultaneously saying "OFF", most puppies will quickly learn the meaning of the command. As soon as the puppy stops and calms down, the owner can allow play to resume, as long as biting does not begin again.

Remember that play biting is a component of play behavior in puppies. Play is a form of social interaction. Realize that your puppy is trying to play with you even though the behavior is rough. To ensure that you are in control, be certain that each play session is initiated by you and not the puppy, and that you can end each session whenever you choose. One effective strategy when the play gets too rough is to immediately end the play session and leave. Social withdrawal can be a very powerful tool. Leave the puppy alone long enough to calm down (30 seconds to two minutes). If upon your return the wild playing begins again, leave again. Keep repeating until the puppy figures out that when he gets wild or bites, you immediately leave the room. Although it is tempting to pick the puppy up and take it out of the room, this interaction may be interpreted by your puppy as additional play and the biting may continue as you carry the puppy to a confinement location.

An easy way to achieve social isolation is to simply leave the room and shut the door behind you so the puppy can’t follow you. Again, keep the "time-outs" for short time periods, 30 seconds to 2 minutes and repeat if necessary until the puppy is calm.

Owners, who cannot inhibit the puppy with yelping or time-outs, could consider an electronic alarm, air horn, squirt bottle or ultrasonic device, as soon as the biting becomes excessive. Use the device as discreetly as possible and immediately AFTER yelping first. Praise the puppy as soon as he lets go. Repeat as needed but remember to keep your extra "tool" like the squirt bottle or air horn hidden until needed and then hide it again immediately after it‘s use. Do not leave it out or threaten the puppy with its use. Use it and then hide it. Children should NOT be allowed to use these devices but they should be supervised by an adult who can use these devices as discretely as possible.

I have heard that some games lead to excitable, rough behavior. Which games should I avoid?

Games such as tug-of-war, chase (with you chasing the puppy), wrestling and playing ANY games with your hands does encourage the puppy to bite and act aggressively towards you. Try teaching your puppy fetch, or blowing bubbles for him, or play hide n’ seek (the human hides and calls the puppy to find him for a reward of a toy or a treat). Direct the puppy’s mouth towards toys he CAN play with. Avoid giving your puppy household items such as shoes, towels or clothing to play with. This practice will teach the puppy it is OK to chew on things with your scent on them. Instead, buy him some sturdy dog toys such as Nylabones, Kongs or large plastic balls. For additional information on play and exercise in dogs, see our accompanying handout.

Is there anything else I can do to lessen mouthing and biting?

Yes. Make sure your puppy gets daily exercise with appropriate toys and enroll your puppy as early as possible (no later than 12 weeks of age) in a puppy socialization and training class. Make sure the class you pick does have play time so the puppies get to interact with each other off leash. You can also find other puppy owners and let your vaccinated pups play with each other once or twice a week. As explained above, puppies will help teach each other bite inhibition.

Article courtesy of the Humane Society of Silicon Valley
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Offline rrnewbie

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2009, 11:34 AM »
I personally don't think this should be allowed in a puppy .....
What about a squirt of water + a very firm NO  :)

I bought a water bottle last week and tried that as well. Unfortunately he thinks it's a wonderful game to open his mouth and get sprayed in the face. He is improving...he only does the bit/run attack when he is very wild....in the morning when we wakes up and usually in the afternoon after he's been in his crate for a few hours.

Offline shodyL

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2009, 11:53 AM »
Quote
I bought a water bottle last week and tried that as well. Unfortunately he thinks it's a wonderful game to open his mouth and get sprayed in the face.

try adding a little vinegar to the water....  it won't be as much fun then...
Shody    ---My Two Babies--Leonidas & Meile!---

Offline Keeper

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2009, 12:51 PM »
try adding a little vinegar to the water....  it won't be as much fun then...
Right about that  :hi5
The vinegar in a water mister is a great way to get your point  across!    ;)
a good idea...unless your travel a lot.  ;)

On long trips in the van or Doggie Limo I will often keep a couple spay bottles in the cooler, just enough to wet their whistle without stopping. 

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Offline lil_bit_dizzy

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Re: Advice Please!!!
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2009, 01:01 PM »
I didnt own my RR when he was a pup so i dont know exactly what they are like. But I did have my pit bull/bull mastiff mix since he was 7 weeks old. Since he is pure bully breeds they are known for mouthy behavior when they are young. It is playful, but they are also in a point of development where they should be around other dogs or puppies, so they can be put in their place if they bite to hard or nip when its not appropriate. Titan actually was extremely nippy, it seemed like for the first 3 months we were working on his problem. Titan was extremely submissive from the start so it wasnt dominance. I tried the holding his mouth shut, and all the others that you mentions as well. The one that worked best for me was saying owe, make it short and high pitched it will register as a yip in his mind. Its not an instant fix especially with the hard headed breed like RRs, but they start putting two and two together. They are extremely intelligent, you just have to make them want to figure it out. So say owe, and ignore them. They will want to know why you are ignoring them, so they will put their clever minds to work. Titan now is the most gentle dog ive ever seen, but he is young so when he gets a little to rough when were rough housing around. All i have to say is "owe" n he either starts licking me or he looks away and wont look at me until I start petting him telling him good boy. Also when you get done playing with them make sure you use a stern verbal signal to symbolize the end. Like "Im done" or "Enough" or anything like that. If they were still with the parents, they would get this signal in a growl or even a look to tell them they have had enough.