Assessing four week olds

[LauraO]

The rules say "Stick to the topic", so I'm going to try this over again based on the litter I saw last weekend.

I came looking for a clean faced male but picked a masked female, or rather, it appears she picked me.
But I'm not so sure.

The litter was four weeks old. They were never on the floor before.
I saw the three boys. The smallest seemed too feisty for my first.
He wanted to go after everyone and was very growly. Another boy had a real cobby build.
He was the biggest. Apparently he blocked up the works during labor and a C section was the result.
He was also the only one who couldn't figure his way out of corners and screamed like a banshee for help.

The third was in the middle. Mellow, couldn't care less if others chewed on him.

Now, I don't know about 4 week olds, but none of the boys were interested too much in what I was.
It WAS their first time on the floor and they were exploring the new environment.
That is totally normal to me.

I DO feel in my head, I need  a relatively laid back dog. I live in NYC with two cats, aged 15 and 16.

I told the breeder, and this is true of me so far, that when I see pups, and see calm ones, I know in my head I need that.
But as a newbie, I also wonder things like "Is he intelligently assessing the situation? Is he reluctant to join for other reasons?
Does he lack confidence?"   And then I proceeded to say that I keep getting drawn to the ones with a little
more spark, though that may not be the best. In other words, my heart and my head pull me in either direction, so far.

Upon that, she brought out a female. It was a masked female. Now I have to say, my gut reaction from her little expressions
and willingness to crawl on me, more so than the boys was, "Oh! She IS cute! She's COOL! Well, I'm NOT totally closed
to the idea of a girl."

If I put her down, she spun a bit, would play a bit with the boys, give a "grrrrrrUFF!" here  and there, but nothing extreme.
Then she came back to me.

A friend of the breeder came by and said "Girls ARE more touchy feely." Upon that I asked to see another girl, which did come to me also
and both girls fell asleep on me. So at that point I thought "So maybe it's a girl thing?"

THe breeder said "Well, that other girl is more of a screamer."

Sure enough, pretty soon the girl wanted off and whimpered and even yelled a bit.
Back to the first girl.

I asked to see the boy once more. He was sleeping in the breeder's lap. 

He slept a bit on my leg, but never really seemed comfy. He got off, I made kissy noises. He tilted his head in a cute way
but then proceeded to walk the other way.

I asked about my cats. Breeder said if the cats rebuffed the male, he'd "get his feelings hurt."
If the rebuffing the female, she might try to pester them again but could be taught to leave them be.

In the end I chose Pink because she chose me, and the breeder trusts my apparent sense and ability.
That is flattering but I am wondering. They WERE only four weeks old. You know, it can be tough for newbies
to garner everything from four week olds. I had always hoped I would be picking from a litter of 8 week olds
but apparently they go too fast for that to be realistic often times.

I have to check again how to load pics here. You can see the glint in her eye in this one the breeder sent.
She called the photo "Essence of Pink."  A good title.

[LauraO]

So, here she is. What does her face say to you all?   

And is this picture too big for forum?  I know there were moderator posts with those concerns.

[kotchfam]

Was the male shy or mellow? There's a big difference. If he's just kind of hanging out not letting the world phase him then that may be what you're looking for. If he was scared of everything and not approaching due to fear - I would worry bigtime.

Aside from the girl picking you - how else did she behave towards everyone and everything?

I wouldn't worry that none of the males looked particularly interested in you since it was a day of firsts for them.

Willingness to crawl on you isn't really a good way of reasoning which is more appropriate for you, but I'm pretty sure you know that .

Ask yourself if you really want an 80lb lapdog later. Being uncomfy in your lap isn't particularly a bad thing either.

So if you need calm and mellow - choose calm and mellow. Be honest with what you can handle so that the two of you will have the best chance at happiness.

Both of my dogs have been very true to their personalities as pups. My mellow boy is mellow and my high drive boy still has high drive.

Best of luck in your search

Kelley

[LauraO]

He didn't seem shy until I made noises. Then he walked the other way AFTER I made them.
In a way, a walk-away type might be better for me.

I figured it made no difference. I probably should have asked for 24 hours to think.
I am considering calling and rationally explaining what is going through  my head, and asking for the boy.

Was the male shy or mellow? There's a big difference. If he's just kind of hanging out not letting the world phase him then that may be what you're looking for. If he was scared of everything and not approaching due to fear - I would worry bigtime.

Aside from the girl picking you - how else did she behave towards everyone and everything?

I wouldn't worry that none of the males looked particularly interested in you since it was a day of firsts for them.

Willingness to crawl on you isn't really a good way of reasoning which is more appropriate for you, but I'm pretty sure you know that .

Ask yourself if you really want an 80lb lapdog later. Being uncomfy in your lap isn't particularly a bad thing either.

So if you need calm and mellow - choose calm and mellow. Be honest with what you can handle so that the two of you will have the best chance at happiness.

Both of my dogs have been very true to their personalities as pups. My mellow boy is mellow and my high drive boy still has high drive.

Best of luck in your search

Kelley

[LauraO]

Oh, the girl. How did she act? Well, she just seemed perkier. She looked at me more. She spun more and barked more.
This is all on tiny puppy level of course. I wouldn't say she was aggressive or a maniac.

She was more interested in ME. She did that oh - so -cute- front-paw-puppy-dance. You know. Where they seem to raise those
paws and prance at you, attempting tiny little swipes?  That's just playing as far as I could see.
She barked and spun a couple of times. But nothing aggressive. I mean, geez, it IS a dog.
At least, that's what I was thinking.

And she was quickly interested in settling in to sleep on me, a LOT.

I would say the boy was more mellow though. From a first visit gut reaction, he was more mellow.
She was perkier. 

Was the male shy or mellow? There's a big difference. If he's just kind of hanging out not letting the world phase him then that may be what you're looking for. If he was scared of everything and not approaching due to fear - I would worry bigtime.

Aside from the girl picking you - how else did she behave towards everyone and everything?

I wouldn't worry that none of the males looked particularly interested in you since it was a day of firsts for them.

Willingness to crawl on you isn't really a good way of reasoning which is more appropriate for you, but I'm pretty sure you know that .

Ask yourself if you really want an 80lb lapdog later. Being uncomfy in your lap isn't particularly a bad thing either.

So if you need calm and mellow - choose calm and mellow. Be honest with what you can handle so that the two of you will have the best chance at happiness.

Both of my dogs have been very true to their personalities as pups. My mellow boy is mellow and my high drive boy still has high drive.

Best of luck in your search

Kelley

[kotchfam]

I wasn't trying to suggest that she was aggressive at all.

All pups need attention, but some pups require or ask for more than others. If you have a needy dog but are not able to be home with it as much as the dog needs, then you could have serious separation issues on your hands.

There is nothing wrong with how the little girl behaved - but as a first time Ridgeback owner I think the mellow boy might be the better fit for you and your apartment.



Kelley

[caro]

When we got our Dobie puppy years ago, she chose us.  In fact the breeder wanted to keep her, but she grabbed my husband's laces and hung on.  She chose us.  She was a great dog and lived for 12 years.  Personally, I would go with your gut feeling.  You don't want a puppy that is going to be really aloof and ignore you, you are looking for a companion so one that wants to be with you and play with you would seem to me a better choice.  She's got a very cute expression.  Did you lift her up and put her on her back on your lap?  Did she struggle or did she just lie there and let you give her a belly rub?  Can you go back and see them again before making up your mind?

Caroline

[kitoyogi]

4 weeks seems premature for picking puppies but every breeder handles that differently.  I don't think 4 weeks will necessarily give you an accurate picture of the pups temperament. 

[melissap]

Hi Laura,

It sounds like you are giving this a good deal of time and thought which I think is so important. It is a very exciting time for you!

I found her personaility to be very similar as she matured with how she was as a young pup. I had gone to visit a few times once the litter was on the ground. It was not until my later visit around 6 weeks or so that the puppies were more playful and could really see "who was who" in the litter. That said, I was right on with my 1st gut call on which pup I was drawn to initially & my breeders assessment confirmed that several times when I had questions

I also found it helpful (like your self) for my breeder to have a good idea of what personality I wanted and was suited to my house and lifestyle.

If you are able, I would ask the breeder if you can come back to see them in a week or two and I would not hesitate to ask her/him about how they continue to develop among the litter mates. It may also be helpful to ask if they are doing temperment testing and have them explain the scores and what the results are for the couple pups that you seem drawn too as you get to know them all a bit.

Take your time and ask as many questions as you feel you need to before making any final call!
Lots of luck.

Melissa

[LauraO]

Yes I sure did!  I put her on her back and she just looked at me. I played with her mouth and teeth, her tiny tail and tiny toes on all feet.
She was absolutely oblivious.  If anything, the "mellow" male struggled a bit more.

Maybe she's just more of a socialite? That could really be a good thing in a city. And as to ignoring me, well, I almost expect that from a ridgie.
One reason I decided this breed was a good choice, one of many, was that they would not contantly be on me for attention. Not in my face.
Otherwise I might have tried out a belgian sheepdog!

But on the other hand, to be ignored a LOT, that would be boring. That's why the breeder pulled her out for me. She said "I think she'll be more entertaining for you." She just listened to me and got the feeling this girl was right.

Maybe she's thinking ridgies are ridgies and have downtime, but given THAT, you should have one that notices you?

When we got our Dobie puppy years ago, she chose us.  In fact the breeder wanted to keep her, but she grabbed my husband's laces and hung on.  She chose us.  She was a great dog and lived for 12 years.  Personally, I would go with your gut feeling.  You don't want a puppy that is going to be really aloof and ignore you, you are looking for a companion so one that wants to be with you and play with you would seem to me a better choice.  She's got a very cute expression.  Did you lift her up and put her on her back on your lap?  Did she struggle or did she just lie there and let you give her a belly rub?  Can you go back and see them again before making up your mind?

Caroline

[LauraO]

 I have experienced a couple of breeders who show pups at 4 or 5 weeks and I find this whole thing bizarre. It's been part of why I have had a hard time even picking one. Maybe a breeder can see things, but as a new buyer, I cannot see what they see. They are puppies, but not the totally PUPPY puppies that truly exude everything, with good motor skills and voices.

People who breed that I have developed relationships with in Europe seem to do things much differently. Same for Australia, but that is another topic.

Anyway, that's a part of why I thought I'd bring this up here. And thanks!

4 weeks seems premature for picking puppies but every breeder handles that differently.  I don't think 4 weeks will necessarily give you an accurate picture of the pups temperament. 

[LauraO]

Oh no. I know you weren't. I guess I just threw that in their to make an extra point. Sorry.   

And yeah, I AM thinking about mellow and my apartment.  But also, there is that other person who asked about flipping on the back.
The girl did nothing while the boy struggled after a minute. He was not liking it. I imagine many of them don't though.

This breeder thinks the "super puppy" program can actually, and I'm paraphrasing, coat over or bury a dog's true self? And that this true self will manifest itself eventually in many cases?

I wasn't trying to suggest that she was aggressive at all.

All pups need attention, but some pups require or ask for more than others. If you have a needy dog but are not able to be home with it as much as the dog needs, then you could have serious separation issues on your hands.

There is nothing wrong with how the little girl behaved - but as a first time Ridgeback owner I think the mellow boy might be the better fit for you and your apartment.



Kelley

[kitoyogi]

People who breed that I have developed relationships with in Europe seem to do things much differently. Same for Australia, but that is another topic.

I think that is still part of this topic.  It shows a different view.  Those views will vary across the US/Canada.  It's a good discussion.  I'm a new breeder and still trying to figure it all out myself from this end.  I get puppy inquiries that I simply that I honestly am not sure how to even deal with at this stage of a planned breeding.  They ask questions that I can't answer because you simply do not know what you will get with any one breeding.  I can't promise where one stands on the puppy waitlist.  From my first litter, the family that got on my list first ended up at the bottom, and really off the list because of concerns that grew overtime.  My ultimate goal is to place the puppies in the best homes for "that puppy".  If you end up with a litter of exceptional ridges and no other noticable cosmetic faults, how can you start assigning puppies to homes at 4 weeks when structure is not yet assessible?  Or movement?  I had my show home keep her mind open to either liver nose pup, depending on how structure was assessed.  It still worked out that she got the pup she thought she was getting but it could have worked out differently.  I think even with pet placements, 4 weeks is too young to definitely know.  But that is just my novice opinion.  The puppy eval that I went to before my litter, all five pups were eval'd.  There was one pet home there for the eval and she didn't know until it was over which pup she was getting and she took him home that day...and she wanted a girl.  The breeder wanted a boy but the best pup in the litter was a girl and that is what she kept!  My litter was was a bit easier because there were only three pups and all had showable ridges but even I didn't know if I was going to keep a pup until the structure and movement started to become evident.  The other delimma I had was there was a pet home that had been waiting for over a year for a liver nose male.  What if that liver nose male ended up being the best pup in the litter, regardless of his white paw?  In the end, it all worked out nicely both structurally and temperaments for each family each pup ended up with.   

There is much to say for trusting your gut instinct, too.

[Keeper]

....
This breeder thinks the "super puppy" program can actually, and I'm paraphrasing, coat over or bury a dog's true self? And that this true self will manifest itself eventually in many cases?

Some interesting reading about the Super Puppy program you are referring to:

http://shell2.lomag.net/~moosedog/superpuppy/

and a book on this: 

"Super Puppy Goes To Puppy Class".
How to Train the Best Dog You'll Ever Have!
~ by Peter J. Vollmer

and finally!?!?!?!  The website that shows the 5 steps for young pups:

http://www.johnlunn.com/tricorn/superpuppy.html

NOTICE:
THIS IS INFORMATIONAL ONLY.

Sandra

[LauraO]

Thanks for this answer. It's a great one. Even though I do not breed I have been learning quite a bit by seeing what other breeders do.

So, in Europe, it seems the waitlists are built months and months in advance. I was on two waitlists in the Netherlands months before the mating even took place. What they tell people is a lot like what you say here; that nature is unpredictable and they cannot guarantee the outcome.
They put enough people on so that there are second families to go to, if some drop off or are displeased. None of them expects any serious decisions until the pups are at least six weeks and no deposits are accepted prior to that time. This way you can see a lot more of what they are really like.

I even got an email from Latvia about a pup. It was supposed to go to a show home, but the breeder wrote and said one testicle had not descended. This came as a surprise. I thought all pups were pretty much taken. Unfortunately because of this, I had not prepared for a new pup yet and I had just returned from Scotland. In fact, I got the email DURING holiday. I read it at an internet cafe.

The breeder said it was good that I was honest, and yes, I should be 100% prepared to enjoy my new dog 100%.
She said I was free to visit if I ever went to Latvia. Well, you BET I'd love to see Latvia, so I may see them next year!

My Oz breeder friends says she has people waiting for her dogs for years. They are all "Let me know when you are breeding."  She doesn't have to advertise practically.

I like the idea of the ahead of time lists and having a lot of backup families, because to my mind, it would lessen the need for getting deposits early as a means to weed out BS artists. A family doesn't have to commit to a few-week-old pup, and if one family backs out there are others to contact.

I have met some very nice breeders in the USA. Sweet people. But it seems a lot of them by me start advertising pups at 4 - 5 weeks and then look for fairly fast decisions. Saying they might be gone and so on. Maybe they could advertise earlier, get a big group of people, tell the people what is happening, and have people come look at 6 or 7 weeks?

Just a thought. I am not a breeder and for all I know, there may be many in the USA who do things differently.   

I think that is still part of this topic.  It shows a different view.  Those views will vary across the US/Canada.  It's a good discussion.  I'm a new breeder and still trying to figure it all out myself from this end.  I get puppy inquiries that I simply that I honestly am not sure how to even deal with at this stage of a planned breeding.  They ask questions that I can't answer because you simply do not know what you will get with any one breeding.  I can't promise where one stands on the puppy waitlist.  From my first litter, the family that got on my list first ended up at the bottom, and really off the list because of concerns that grew overtime.  My ultimate goal is to place the puppies in the best homes for "that puppy".  If you end up with a litter of exceptional ridges and no other noticable cosmetic faults, how can you start assigning puppies to homes at 4 weeks when structure is not yet assessible?  Or movement?  I had my show home keep her mind open to either liver nose pup, depending on how structure was assessed.  It still worked out that she got the pup she thought she was getting but it could have worked out differently.  I think even with pet placements, 4 weeks is too young to definitely know.  But that is just my novice opinion.  The puppy eval that I went to before my litter, all five pups were eval'd.  There was one pet home there for the eval and she didn't know until it was over which pup she was getting and she took him home that day...and she wanted a girl.  The breeder wanted a boy but the best pup in the litter was a girl and that is what she kept!  My litter was was a bit easier because there were only three pups and all had showable ridges but even I didn't know if I was going to keep a pup until the structure and movement started to become evident.  The other delimma I had was there was a pet home that had been waiting for over a year for a liver nose male.  What if that liver nose male ended up being the best pup in the litter, regardless of his white paw?  In the end, it all worked out nicely both structurally and temperaments for each family each pup ended up with.   

There is much to say for trusting your gut instinct, too.