Author Topic: UKC  (Read 1234 times)

Offline saikridgebacks

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UKC
« on: July 23, 2006, 12:27 AM »
Do any of you guys show in UKC events? I thought about letting Galen show one of the dogs, but I know very little about it. Other than they let little kids show (with the help of an adult handler) And he really wants to go. I am working with him, and want to make sure he takes this as seriously as he can, while still making it fun for him. Any advice?

Also I was thinking if I was going to be there I might as well show. Do you guys know how it works?

here is a link to the UKC website http://www.ukcdogs.com

Thanks
HK
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Offline wolwekraal

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Re: UKC
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2006, 05:04 AM »
what's the "specificity" about UKC, CKC
http://www.continentalkennelclub.com/Default.aspx
and eventually the others groups
in comparaison with AKC,  only seems to be recognized by FCI -Federation Canine Internationale-( really international ,then??) ::)
very european question!! ;)

how many Ridgebacks birth by year in USA with the differents registrations?
in Germany?
Poland?
England?
...and from others countries!
many thanks for your answers!
i make a study!! ;)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 10:51 AM by wolwekraal »
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Re: UKC
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2006, 10:00 AM »
Heathe I know of a few that use UKC, although I have not. I know Sandra is very up on how that works and has many dogs with AKC, Canadian and UKC titles.

She encourages getting the young ones in this program, I think she posted on this once maybe in the thread about junior handlers?

Good luck I am sure Galen would love it. Plus you could get a dual Championship on your guys.

Karen

Offline saikridgebacks

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Re: UKC
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2006, 10:36 AM »
If I had been smart I would have registered the dogs before they were 2 the price doubled :-\

Someone told me that the judges ask you questions...like a test about your breed as well. HUMMM what kind of questions do they ask the little ones, I wonder. I don't know that Galen would talk to the judge LOL ;)
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Offline regimentvixen

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Re: UKC
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2006, 12:47 AM »
Heathe,
 I just went to a UKC show last weekend. It was very relaxed and would be great for kids, puppy's, and unexperienced dogs/owners. They do run behind, so beware and plan to spend the day there.

 The dog needs to win three times to become a champion. A RR must compete against another RR in order to win. If there is not another RR there, the dog would go against other hounds, then need to win for it to count as a win.

 They usually have two shows a day, so you could do 4 shows in a weekend.

 I didn't see any of the judges asking about the breed & they don't do written critiques like at an International show. They only do a written for the herding group.

 I was just observing last weekend with a friend, who showed me the ropes and finished her ridgeback also ;D I think I will get my boys titled for the fun of it!
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Offline WAARHEID

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Re: UKC
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2006, 01:48 AM »
what's the "specificity" about UKC, CKC and eventually the others groups in comparaison with AKC,  only seems to be recognized by FCI -Federation Canine Internationale-( really international ,then??) ::) very european question!! ;)

I cannot speak to the CKC, but here in the U.S. the UKC/PKC/ISDS/etc. are generally thought of as registries for "real dogs" (field/working dogs). That is to say, dogs that can actually do the job the breed was developed for... with excellence. The AKC is generally thought of as the registry for "Barbie dogs" (show dogs). That is to say, dogs with exaggerated features/conformation which are very appealing to the eye, and therefore rewarded in the show ring, but when put to work, it becomes obvious that they are 'toys' more suited to "playing pretend" than excelling in their breed's true function(s).


Offline wolwekraal

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Re: UKC
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2006, 03:57 AM »
i understand;
 for example:  if we want to import a RR in France with UKC registration,our Kennel Club= Societe centrale canine doesn't recognize this pedigree; may  a dog have an AKC & UKC pedigree?
i prefer a RR with ability...
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Offline caro

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Re: UKC
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2006, 07:24 AM »
Waarheid, your prejeudices are emerging!  ;D

Wolwekraal, dogs that show in the AKC shows are frequently just as talented so don't believe that UKC is the only place you can find a working RR!  However, I have heard that it could be true for Labradors and other gundogs, and sled dogs also. 

You will find quite a few Ridgebacks with AKC and UKC titles, it rather depends where one lives because UKC shows are not as widespread as AKC nor do they occur as often. 

I can think of quite a few dogs who have been successful in AKC conformation who carry a list of other achievements that go off the page.  Ann Jones' Quantum Leap comes to mind immediately, as does Tammy's Ivan and of course the Rudd's two, Mick and Stevie.  I know Mick and Stevie both have AKC, UKC and CKC conformation titles, not sure about the other two.

So, wolwekraal, if you are looking for a Ridgeback that can do a job of work or be active in sports, you should look more at the conformation of the dog and the kennel that it comes from.  It is hard for somebody from France to do this because you don't know the kennels and there are so many of them here in the U.S.  But ask questions and look at LOTS of pictures to see what you like then go from there.  You might also take a look at the dogs that have won the Triatholon at the National Specialties.

Caroline

Offline wolwekraal

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Re: UKC
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2006, 09:28 AM »
Quote
Triatholon at the National Specialties
does an URL/website exist?
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Offline caro

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Re: UKC
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2006, 02:35 PM »
www.RRCUS.org , then click on Specialty results, I think you will find the Triatholon results there, or you should.  Perhaps Heath as you have taken over updating the website, you know where they might be found.
Caroline

Offline WAARHEID

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Re: UKC
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2006, 03:00 PM »
Waarheid, your prejudices are emerging!  ;D


When it comes to functional dogs, I'll admit to my "prejudices" with pride! :D


Wolwekraal, dogs that show in the AKC shows are frequently just as talented so don't believe that UKC is the only place you can find a working RR!.


Technically, Ridgebacks are eligible to run in UKC Cur & Feist Squirrel events, but the UKC has not really provided small-game or big-game venues for Ridgebacks like they have for most of the other hounds and gun-dogs. So, just to clarify on Ridgebacks and the UKC, you won't find working RRs in the UKC either.


However, I have heard that it could be true for Labradors and other gundogs, and sled dogs also.


In her "Lion Hunter vs. Couch Potato" seminar, very accomplished and long-time Ridgeback breeder (and working dog convert) Bonnie Sykes-Norris asserts that working dog people do not compete in AKC events because their dogs operate at the very highest levels of breed function and the AKC events, quite frankly, "Aren't challenging enough." She also contends that those in the highest levels of working dog community are just as organized, just as studied (if not more so), and just as selective in their breeding as those at the highest levels of the AKC breeding world... respectively, they simply operate with a different set of priorities.

Bonnie contends that in the broadest terms the field/working dogs would be run right out if the AKC show ring. They would be considered "too tall" or "too short", they are usually longer coupled and straighter shouldered, they may have odd ear sets, tail sets etc. She argues that these breeders understand and appreciate conformational minutia as much as show breeders, but at the end of the day, they need the dog to work. The game being hunted, the sheep being herded, the criminal being taken down, etc don't give the dog extra bonus points for being pretty, or having well let down hocks, or nice ear leather, etc. The truth is, the working dog breeders would like to have both superior working ability and superior conformation, but more often than not, they are faced with choices like, if the dog with the 35 degree shoulder works his brains out, and the dog with the 45 degree shoulder is completely lost... guess who gets bred. The dog with the 35 degree shoulder that loves to work.

The important thing to understand is that the idea that AKC dogs are "just as talented" is simply not borne out by the reality of what is seen in the working dog community every day. Simply compare any working/field-dog registry/group to its AKC equivalent.

1. ISDS (http://www.isds.org.uk/) - Compared to the ISDS, AKC herding is a bad joke, poorly told.

2. Gun Dogs (http://www.navhda.org/  http://www.nstra.org/   http://www.ukcdogs.com/HPPointing.htm) - Most of these groups were actually started because of the complete inadequacy of AKC Field trials.

3. UKC Retrievers (http://www.hrc-ukc.com/) - Again, no comparison.

4. NGA (http://www.ngagreyhounds.com/) - The NGA will not even allow AKC registered dogs into their registry/stud books, citing them as "inferior animals". This is not said with even the slightest hint of snobbery of condescension... it is simply the unapologetic truth. NGA greyhounds can literally run circles around their AKC 'coursing' cousins.

5. GSDs (http://www.germanshepherddog.com/) - AKC judges and breeders have literally crippled the GSD. The average BOB winning AKC GSD would likely not last through the first day of a police training program because that ridiculously exaggerated rear assembly would keep the dog from being able to work effectively, if not completely break down.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

The good news for us is that Ridgebacks have not yet really diverged into separate show and field types. Hopefully here in the U.S. the RRCUS will embrace Ridgebacks true functionality as hunting dogs and cattle drovers, otherwise, our breed to will suffer the same fate as so many others, and become divested. I hope that doesn't happen to our breed.


.

Offline Keeper

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Re: UKC
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2006, 03:05 PM »
http://www.ukcdogs.com

BTW, it is the 2nd oldest club in the United States...as it is now 101 years old.
Originally formed for the working dog, hunting, guardians. 

The first UKC champion was my Harley.  Kissi's Gonadu' Uin.

At that time I happened to be visiting my daughter often in Kalamazoo...and decided to enter a couple shows to see what it was like.  Of course, I had to bring my own RRs to make a class...and it took more work than what it does now.  They didn't have the judges who were familiar with RRs back then.  I offered several dogs, the AKC video on RR's and a hands on to several judges at a show. 

Another thing back then, they could use AKC judges, even tho' they didn't do it often.  Now I have been told that AKC judges are told not to judge the UKC shows. 

There are more shows now...and more judges are acquainted with the RR.   ;)
They also have a Top 10 show in June...you are invited to attend if your dog is in the Top 10.

As for the Junior handlers...you will use 2 leashes for kids in the Pee-Wee class.  You will be using a longer one so that the child can take the dog on the short one.  Be sure your child has some knowledge of what to do in the ring.  The PeeWee Class is often filled with the main-stay of the UKC - Guarding dogs...and unfortunately that means Pits.  Please remember to keep your dogs and your children in control at all times....there are some  :-[  in the UKC who do not...and it has resulted in some injuries.   :'(

Rules have been changed over the past 15 years...and I hear they will be doing so again.  At least UKC has no problem booting out unscrupulous breeders. 

I had to laugh  :D  :D  :D  :D at Caroline's comment to Matt...    Just like all venues...you will see Pretty is as Pretty Does...you will see the Real workings of breeds....and you will see everything in between.  But, quite honestly...I have seen the same at the Canadian (CKC) show and the American Kennel Club (AKC) shows too.

What I don't like about the UKC shows is that Sometimes they Allow the Pits to 'perform' on attack mode...for spectators to watch.  This is schutzenhund work...but they have also done some 'sparring' with other Pits.  Not my cup of tea...and something I think should be in a specialized venue...and not included in All-Breed Conformation, Obedience, Agility and Tracking shows.  JMPO. 

Sandra

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Offline Keeper

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Re: UKC
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2006, 03:43 PM »
Waarheid, your prejudices are emerging, again....fortunately...I have to agree with the majority of what you have stated in your last post.

With respect to Bonnie Sykes-Norris, I disagree.  As I think we can have both conformation and working.  We just have to find organizations willing to offer our dogs the tests...and owners willing to try it.

Remember, coursing?
Herding?
Obedience?
Tracking?
Even weight pulls?
I find it hard to believe that Matt is the only person hunting with their dog.  I have heard that Germany has many hunt tests and RRs have competed. 

Matt says:  Technically, Ridgebacks are eligible to run in UKC Cur & Feist Squirrel events, but the UKC has not really provided small-game or big-game venues for Ridgebacks like they have for most of the other hounds and gun-dogs. So, just to clarify on Ridgebacks and the UKC, you won't find working RRs in the UKC either.

So what's stopping you Matt?   ???  What's stopping RR owners, in general???   
If I could work the field again, I would certainly try the squirrel tests..... :o  Heck, mine are so good at squirrel and rabbit that I don't even need a gun...unfortunately, I need to catch them BEFORE the play tug of war with the critter.
 ::)
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Offline WAARHEID

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Re: UKC
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2006, 08:03 PM »
Waarheid, your prejudices are emerging, again....fortunately...I have to agree with the majority of what you have stated in your last post.


Like I said before. When it comes to functional dogs I am prejudiced, and proud of it  ;D.


With respect to Bonnie Sykes-Norris, I disagree.  As I think we can have both conformation and working.  We just have to find organizations willing to offer our dogs the tests...and owners willing to try it.


You preaching, me choir.  :D I disagree with Bonnie on this one as well. She essentially argues that you cannot have your cake and eat it too because in every real working performance venue that she has studied, the dogs that perform the best, never have 'show' type conformation. I would agree with her observation itself, but disagree with her conclusion. I think it is POSSIBLE, but it would be an unfathomably difficult road-to-hoe... we can have both, but the conformation RR folks will have to decide they are willing to let their little 'snookums' break a nail on the hunt, and the RR hunting folks are going to have to come out of the closet... well, I can dream can't I?   :blush.


Remember, coursing?/Herding?/Obedience?/Tracking?/Even weight pulls?


Discussing the real-world value and viability (or lack thereof) of any of those events as substantive evaluations of our dogs ability to do what they were developed for, is a road we probably shouldn't go down... perhaps in the debate area, even then, it's probably better left alone.


I find it hard to believe that Matt is the only person hunting with their dog.  I have heard that Germany has many hunt tests and RRs have competed. 


You only heard half of the story. Ridgebacks have been overtly rejected and shunned by the hunting orgs in Germany. That's part of what club ELSA (http://www.club-elsa.de/english/index.php) is trying to do now... prove to the German hunting community that our dogs are for real. I had the honor of working with several club ELSA dogs while I was in Germany visiting with Club Elsa's President for several days. Their dogs excel as wounded game trackers, a fact I was able to document on video while there. But they have a very uphill battle on their hands.


Matt says:  Technically, Ridgebacks are eligible to run in UKC Cur & Feist Squirrel events, but the UKC has not really provided small-game or big-game venues for Ridgebacks.

So what's stopping you Matt?   ??? 


An EXCELLENT question. I personally don't enter the UKC Cur/Feist Squirrel events because the dogs are rewarded for a particular hunting style... in the squirrel events that is... hunting like a Feist. Ridgebacks have a completely different hunting style. They have as much chance as titling in a UKC squirrel event as a Dachshund does in an upland Field-trial. Even if you had a Dachshund that hunted birds, he would do it in a very different way from a Brittany Spaniel, and the trial is specifically designed to reward that particular style. We need breed-specific hunting trials.


What's stopping RR owners, in general???   


Another excellent question. I wish I had more/better answers. I hope I'm wrong, but I think where individual owners are concerned (as opposed to breeders), most RR owners are just not interested. They're simply not going to do it if they're not interested.


We just have to find organizations willing to offer our dogs the tests...and owners willing to try it. / What's stopping RR owners, in general???   /  If I could work the field again, I would certainly try the squirrel tests..... :o  Heck, mine are so good at squirrel and rabbit that I don't even need a gun...  ::)  Sandra


The truth is that there is another facet of this that very few want to talk about, but I suspect it's the real "elephant in the middle of the room".  :o

Two main smoke-screen arguments seem to prevail amoung the breeders (as opposed to individual owners).

1. I know this not what you're saying at all Sandra, so please know that I'm not referring to you here, but for many breeders it's easier to say "My dogs 'hunt' all the time on their own... trialling/testing would just be redundant." The simple and obvious answer to that, is that there is a profound difference between prey-drive, and a dog's abilities as a hunting companion. This is self-evident, but like I said, it's a smoke screen meant to distract, not address the issue.

2. The other is the "risk of injury" argument, which again is non-sensical in a breed culture that promotes lure coursing - a venue in which injuries happen with regularity. Like I said, it doesn't have to make sense, it's a smoke-screen, it just needs to distract from the real issue.

I suspect the truth is that many breeders are worried that if their "lion hunting dogs" were actually trialled, they might find out they won't hunt. Think about the damage that could do to a program.  :-[ What happens to your top 10 stud dog when he's tested, and everyone finds out he won't hunt? I think many in the breed will give any excuse they can think of to distract from the real issue, but what it really comes down to is fear that their dogs would not make muster. I sincerely hope that I am dead-wrong about this one, but as much resistance as there is to the idea of a breed specific hunting trial system, it makes me wonder.  :'(









« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 02:47 AM by WAARHEID »

Offline Theresa M. Lyons

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Re: UKC
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2006, 09:48 PM »
Instead of trying to quote each individual person, I am simply going to give my opinions.  I do not plan to sugar coat my opinions on this subject, so I will get straight to the point.

1)  As long as I have been in Ridgebacks (and even before) we here the same argument:  My dog is better because he is conformationally sound - or - My dog is better because he is "real"  performer.  With that comes the "U.S. dogs are too extreme so they can't perform" and the "Overseas dogs are clunky but some can perform." And as long as I can remember there were "performance kennels" and "conformation kennels".  Now, as the events become more popular, we are seeing many top conformation kennels doing both.  What we do not see changing is the reverse.  Why is that?  If anyone plans of giving me the analogy of the golden retrievers and German shepherds being ruined by the show ring, don't waste your breath.  I know this is true.  I have seen it happen.  But, I DO NOT see this happening with the Ridgeback.  No matter what a small percentage of individuals think.

2)  And why doesn't that top ten dog (and or kennel) have all those fancy performance titles like a "real" Ridgeback should have?  Hmmmm....maybe it's because the owners have so much money invested into the show dog that they a) don't want the dog hurt (yeah Matt, that's a reality, not a smoke screen).  b)  don't have the time to take the dog out to do performance events.  Or c) simply have no interest.

3)  We can all argue until the end of the earth regarding the 35 vs. 45 degree shoulder lay.  One thing is for sure...regardless of what side of the fence you are on...if your dog is NOT properly structured, you are doing damage by eventing them.  Maybe not now, but later, you will pay the price for the improperly built front end or rear for that matter. So lets not make that issue about the show dog verses the performance dog argument.

4)  Yes, dog shows are becoming more and more political and often cause us all to wonder what a championship really means.  But let's be real about this.  Lure Coursing...scored by a judge, subjective.  Obedience...scored by a judge, subjective.  And the list goes on.  But you get my point.  Unless it is a first dog crosses the line (like racing) it is all subjective...ergo political. 

5)  And let's talk about hunting for minute?  I am a firm believer (and Matt and I have had this discussion several times) that I can train almost ANY CANINE to do whatever I want it to do.  My Belgian Terv (10 years old) can out course any Ridgeback I have seen in my 15 years.  He can herd, he can protect and he can go all day.  But...he is structurally unsound. He has a horribly straight front, a ewe neck, slipped hocks, feet point in every direction, eye problems and had a seizure a few years ago.  While some of these things come instinctively, he excels at them PURELY ON HEART.  Now my Ridgeback (9 years old) is far superior in his structure, chases the wildlife whenever he can, runs them up a tree and awaits my return (as does my Terv).  He was also taught at an early age (by my herding Terv) that you will not leave the property line.  So what do you think happend when I took him to course?  You got it...crazy at the line...run 75 feet (about the distance of my property line)...stop and come back.  But, alas, when he ran with my Terv, he ran the whole course.  And what do you think he does with my kids now....hmm, herd them.  So what's my point...not really sure because I began to ramble...but I think what I am trying to say is that I really do believe that you can train any dog to whatever event you want them to do and VICE VERSA.  Because they love us.  Because they want to please us.  Because they are our companions with more heart then most humans.

The past 15 years that I have been in this breed, I had to listen to people say things like, "you don't want a Kimani dog, they're too soft, they won't perform" or "just look at the dogs in the Kimani pedigrees, they have no performance titles, because they are just show dogs."  I am hear to say, that the real answer is....are you ready....many of us within our group simply choose to breed show, maybe dabble in performance and have absolutely NO INTEREST in hunting.  But, when our other owners take the time to do performance events, they do excel.  Many in number one racing positions, many BIF winners and also Specialty Triathlon winners.  Many top winners in both the ring and performance events.  Thus proving that with the time, effort and a sound dog, almost anything is possible.

I really do not understand this need to always pit conformation against performance.  At one time, about 10 years ago, it did seem that we were moving in the direction of two different looks.  The pretty as a picture show dog verses the whippity looking coursing dog was becoming the norm.  But then, something happened.  The big ass Ridgeback with all the height, bone and weight (outside the standard) began winning in performance events.  The standard (and some not so standard) top ten dogs started doing performance events.  Many doing very well.  I would venture to say it was because they too were tired of hearing that the eventing dogs were "real" Ridgebacks and the conformation dogs were too extreme or pretty to perform.  Either way and no matter the reason, it is a huge step in the right direction.

And before anyone decides to say that Theresa is a breed person and is trying to set up a smoke screen because she is worried that her dogs can't perform.  I would like to say nonsense.  I simply prefer conformation due to my time constraints.  I like to do performance events and will do them when I can.  I have NO INTEREST in hunting my Ridgeback...for various reasons, but not because of fear of failure!!

Furthermore, I believe temperament is the single most important facet of a canine companion...which is really what our breed is today. 

Theresa : )