Author Topic: UKC  (Read 1234 times)

Offline saikridgebacks

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UKC
« on: July 23, 2006, 12:27 AM »
Do any of you guys show in UKC events? I thought about letting Galen show one of the dogs, but I know very little about it. Other than they let little kids show (with the help of an adult handler) And he really wants to go. I am working with him, and want to make sure he takes this as seriously as he can, while still making it fun for him. Any advice?

Also I was thinking if I was going to be there I might as well show. Do you guys know how it works?

here is a link to the UKC website http://www.ukcdogs.com

Thanks
HK
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Offline wolwekraal

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Re: UKC
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2006, 05:04 AM »
what's the "specificity" about UKC, CKC
http://www.continentalkennelclub.com/Default.aspx
and eventually the others groups
in comparaison with AKC,  only seems to be recognized by FCI -Federation Canine Internationale-( really international ,then??) ::)
very european question!! ;)

how many Ridgebacks birth by year in USA with the differents registrations?
in Germany?
Poland?
England?
...and from others countries!
many thanks for your answers!
i make a study!! ;)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 10:51 AM by wolwekraal »
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Re: UKC
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2006, 10:00 AM »
Heathe I know of a few that use UKC, although I have not. I know Sandra is very up on how that works and has many dogs with AKC, Canadian and UKC titles.

She encourages getting the young ones in this program, I think she posted on this once maybe in the thread about junior handlers?

Good luck I am sure Galen would love it. Plus you could get a dual Championship on your guys.

Karen

Offline saikridgebacks

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Re: UKC
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2006, 10:36 AM »
If I had been smart I would have registered the dogs before they were 2 the price doubled :-\

Someone told me that the judges ask you questions...like a test about your breed as well. HUMMM what kind of questions do they ask the little ones, I wonder. I don't know that Galen would talk to the judge LOL ;)
Heathe Kias Turner
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Offline regimentvixen

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Re: UKC
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2006, 12:47 AM »
Heathe,
 I just went to a UKC show last weekend. It was very relaxed and would be great for kids, puppy's, and unexperienced dogs/owners. They do run behind, so beware and plan to spend the day there.

 The dog needs to win three times to become a champion. A RR must compete against another RR in order to win. If there is not another RR there, the dog would go against other hounds, then need to win for it to count as a win.

 They usually have two shows a day, so you could do 4 shows in a weekend.

 I didn't see any of the judges asking about the breed & they don't do written critiques like at an International show. They only do a written for the herding group.

 I was just observing last weekend with a friend, who showed me the ropes and finished her ridgeback also ;D I think I will get my boys titled for the fun of it!
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Offline WAARHEID

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Re: UKC
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2006, 01:48 AM »
what's the "specificity" about UKC, CKC and eventually the others groups in comparaison with AKC,  only seems to be recognized by FCI -Federation Canine Internationale-( really international ,then??) ::) very european question!! ;)

I cannot speak to the CKC, but here in the U.S. the UKC/PKC/ISDS/etc. are generally thought of as registries for "real dogs" (field/working dogs). That is to say, dogs that can actually do the job the breed was developed for... with excellence. The AKC is generally thought of as the registry for "Barbie dogs" (show dogs). That is to say, dogs with exaggerated features/conformation which are very appealing to the eye, and therefore rewarded in the show ring, but when put to work, it becomes obvious that they are 'toys' more suited to "playing pretend" than excelling in their breed's true function(s).


Offline wolwekraal

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Re: UKC
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2006, 03:57 AM »
i understand;
 for example:  if we want to import a RR in France with UKC registration,our Kennel Club= Societe centrale canine doesn't recognize this pedigree; may  a dog have an AKC & UKC pedigree?
i prefer a RR with ability...
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Offline caro

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Re: UKC
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2006, 07:24 AM »
Waarheid, your prejeudices are emerging!  ;D

Wolwekraal, dogs that show in the AKC shows are frequently just as talented so don't believe that UKC is the only place you can find a working RR!  However, I have heard that it could be true for Labradors and other gundogs, and sled dogs also. 

You will find quite a few Ridgebacks with AKC and UKC titles, it rather depends where one lives because UKC shows are not as widespread as AKC nor do they occur as often. 

I can think of quite a few dogs who have been successful in AKC conformation who carry a list of other achievements that go off the page.  Ann Jones' Quantum Leap comes to mind immediately, as does Tammy's Ivan and of course the Rudd's two, Mick and Stevie.  I know Mick and Stevie both have AKC, UKC and CKC conformation titles, not sure about the other two.

So, wolwekraal, if you are looking for a Ridgeback that can do a job of work or be active in sports, you should look more at the conformation of the dog and the kennel that it comes from.  It is hard for somebody from France to do this because you don't know the kennels and there are so many of them here in the U.S.  But ask questions and look at LOTS of pictures to see what you like then go from there.  You might also take a look at the dogs that have won the Triatholon at the National Specialties.

Caroline

Offline wolwekraal

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Re: UKC
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2006, 09:28 AM »
Quote
Triatholon at the National Specialties
does an URL/website exist?
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Offline caro

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Re: UKC
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2006, 02:35 PM »
www.RRCUS.org , then click on Specialty results, I think you will find the Triatholon results there, or you should.  Perhaps Heath as you have taken over updating the website, you know where they might be found.
Caroline

Offline WAARHEID

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Re: UKC
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2006, 03:00 PM »
Waarheid, your prejudices are emerging!  ;D


When it comes to functional dogs, I'll admit to my "prejudices" with pride! :D


Wolwekraal, dogs that show in the AKC shows are frequently just as talented so don't believe that UKC is the only place you can find a working RR!.


Technically, Ridgebacks are eligible to run in UKC Cur & Feist Squirrel events, but the UKC has not really provided small-game or big-game venues for Ridgebacks like they have for most of the other hounds and gun-dogs. So, just to clarify on Ridgebacks and the UKC, you won't find working RRs in the UKC either.


However, I have heard that it could be true for Labradors and other gundogs, and sled dogs also.


In her "Lion Hunter vs. Couch Potato" seminar, very accomplished and long-time Ridgeback breeder (and working dog convert) Bonnie Sykes-Norris asserts that working dog people do not compete in AKC events because their dogs operate at the very highest levels of breed function and the AKC events, quite frankly, "Aren't challenging enough." She also contends that those in the highest levels of working dog community are just as organized, just as studied (if not more so), and just as selective in their breeding as those at the highest levels of the AKC breeding world... respectively, they simply operate with a different set of priorities.

Bonnie contends that in the broadest terms the field/working dogs would be run right out if the AKC show ring. They would be considered "too tall" or "too short", they are usually longer coupled and straighter shouldered, they may have odd ear sets, tail sets etc. She argues that these breeders understand and appreciate conformational minutia as much as show breeders, but at the end of the day, they need the dog to work. The game being hunted, the sheep being herded, the criminal being taken down, etc don't give the dog extra bonus points for being pretty, or having well let down hocks, or nice ear leather, etc. The truth is, the working dog breeders would like to have both superior working ability and superior conformation, but more often than not, they are faced with choices like, if the dog with the 35 degree shoulder works his brains out, and the dog with the 45 degree shoulder is completely lost... guess who gets bred. The dog with the 35 degree shoulder that loves to work.

The important thing to understand is that the idea that AKC dogs are "just as talented" is simply not borne out by the reality of what is seen in the working dog community every day. Simply compare any working/field-dog registry/group to its AKC equivalent.

1. ISDS (http://www.isds.org.uk/) - Compared to the ISDS, AKC herding is a bad joke, poorly told.

2. Gun Dogs (http://www.navhda.org/  http://www.nstra.org/   http://www.ukcdogs.com/HPPointing.htm) - Most of these groups were actually started because of the complete inadequacy of AKC Field trials.

3. UKC Retrievers (http://www.hrc-ukc.com/) - Again, no comparison.

4. NGA (http://www.ngagreyhounds.com/) - The NGA will not even allow AKC registered dogs into their registry/stud books, citing them as "inferior animals". This is not said with even the slightest hint of snobbery of condescension... it is simply the unapologetic truth. NGA greyhounds can literally run circles around their AKC 'coursing' cousins.

5. GSDs (http://www.germanshepherddog.com/) - AKC judges and breeders have literally crippled the GSD. The average BOB winning AKC GSD would likely not last through the first day of a police training program because that ridiculously exaggerated rear assembly would keep the dog from being able to work effectively, if not completely break down.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

The good news for us is that Ridgebacks have not yet really diverged into separate show and field types. Hopefully here in the U.S. the RRCUS will embrace Ridgebacks true functionality as hunting dogs and cattle drovers, otherwise, our breed to will suffer the same fate as so many others, and become divested. I hope that doesn't happen to our breed.


.

Offline Keeper

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Re: UKC
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2006, 03:05 PM »
http://www.ukcdogs.com

BTW, it is the 2nd oldest club in the United States...as it is now 101 years old.
Originally formed for the working dog, hunting, guardians. 

The first UKC champion was my Harley.  Kissi's Gonadu' Uin.

At that time I happened to be visiting my daughter often in Kalamazoo...and decided to enter a couple shows to see what it was like.  Of course, I had to bring my own RRs to make a class...and it took more work than what it does now.  They didn't have the judges who were familiar with RRs back then.  I offered several dogs, the AKC video on RR's and a hands on to several judges at a show. 

Another thing back then, they could use AKC judges, even tho' they didn't do it often.  Now I have been told that AKC judges are told not to judge the UKC shows. 

There are more shows now...and more judges are acquainted with the RR.   ;)
They also have a Top 10 show in June...you are invited to attend if your dog is in the Top 10.

As for the Junior handlers...you will use 2 leashes for kids in the Pee-Wee class.  You will be using a longer one so that the child can take the dog on the short one.  Be sure your child has some knowledge of what to do in the ring.  The PeeWee Class is often filled with the main-stay of the UKC - Guarding dogs...and unfortunately that means Pits.  Please remember to keep your dogs and your children in control at all times....there are some  :-[  in the UKC who do not...and it has resulted in some injuries.   :'(

Rules have been changed over the past 15 years...and I hear they will be doing so again.  At least UKC has no problem booting out unscrupulous breeders. 

I had to laugh  :D  :D  :D  :D at Caroline's comment to Matt...    Just like all venues...you will see Pretty is as Pretty Does...you will see the Real workings of breeds....and you will see everything in between.  But, quite honestly...I have seen the same at the Canadian (CKC) show and the American Kennel Club (AKC) shows too.

What I don't like about the UKC shows is that Sometimes they Allow the Pits to 'perform' on attack mode...for spectators to watch.  This is schutzenhund work...but they have also done some 'sparring' with other Pits.  Not my cup of tea...and something I think should be in a specialized venue...and not included in All-Breed Conformation, Obedience, Agility and Tracking shows.  JMPO. 

Sandra

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Offline Keeper

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Re: UKC
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2006, 03:43 PM »
Waarheid, your prejudices are emerging, again....fortunately...I have to agree with the majority of what you have stated in your last post.

With respect to Bonnie Sykes-Norris, I disagree.  As I think we can have both conformation and working.  We just have to find organizations willing to offer our dogs the tests...and owners willing to try it.

Remember, coursing?
Herding?
Obedience?
Tracking?
Even weight pulls?
I find it hard to believe that Matt is the only person hunting with their dog.  I have heard that Germany has many hunt tests and RRs have competed. 

Matt says:  Technically, Ridgebacks are eligible to run in UKC Cur & Feist Squirrel events, but the UKC has not really provided small-game or big-game venues for Ridgebacks like they have for most of the other hounds and gun-dogs. So, just to clarify on Ridgebacks and the UKC, you won't find working RRs in the UKC either.

So what's stopping you Matt?   ???  What's stopping RR owners, in general???   
If I could work the field again, I would certainly try the squirrel tests..... :o  Heck, mine are so good at squirrel and rabbit that I don't even need a gun...unfortunately, I need to catch them BEFORE the play tug of war with the critter.
 ::)
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Offline WAARHEID

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Re: UKC
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2006, 08:03 PM »
Waarheid, your prejudices are emerging, again....fortunately...I have to agree with the majority of what you have stated in your last post.


Like I said before. When it comes to functional dogs I am prejudiced, and proud of it  ;D.


With respect to Bonnie Sykes-Norris, I disagree.  As I think we can have both conformation and working.  We just have to find organizations willing to offer our dogs the tests...and owners willing to try it.


You preaching, me choir.  :D I disagree with Bonnie on this one as well. She essentially argues that you cannot have your cake and eat it too because in every real working performance venue that she has studied, the dogs that perform the best, never have 'show' type conformation. I would agree with her observation itself, but disagree with her conclusion. I think it is POSSIBLE, but it would be an unfathomably difficult road-to-hoe... we can have both, but the conformation RR folks will have to decide they are willing to let their little 'snookums' break a nail on the hunt, and the RR hunting folks are going to have to come out of the closet... well, I can dream can't I?   :blush.


Remember, coursing?/Herding?/Obedience?/Tracking?/Even weight pulls?


Discussing the real-world value and viability (or lack thereof) of any of those events as substantive evaluations of our dogs ability to do what they were developed for, is a road we probably shouldn't go down... perhaps in the debate area, even then, it's probably better left alone.


I find it hard to believe that Matt is the only person hunting with their dog.  I have heard that Germany has many hunt tests and RRs have competed. 


You only heard half of the story. Ridgebacks have been overtly rejected and shunned by the hunting orgs in Germany. That's part of what club ELSA (http://www.club-elsa.de/english/index.php) is trying to do now... prove to the German hunting community that our dogs are for real. I had the honor of working with several club ELSA dogs while I was in Germany visiting with Club Elsa's President for several days. Their dogs excel as wounded game trackers, a fact I was able to document on video while there. But they have a very uphill battle on their hands.


Matt says:  Technically, Ridgebacks are eligible to run in UKC Cur & Feist Squirrel events, but the UKC has not really provided small-game or big-game venues for Ridgebacks.

So what's stopping you Matt?   ??? 


An EXCELLENT question. I personally don't enter the UKC Cur/Feist Squirrel events because the dogs are rewarded for a particular hunting style... in the squirrel events that is... hunting like a Feist. Ridgebacks have a completely different hunting style. They have as much chance as titling in a UKC squirrel event as a Dachshund does in an upland Field-trial. Even if you had a Dachshund that hunted birds, he would do it in a very different way from a Brittany Spaniel, and the trial is specifically designed to reward that particular style. We need breed-specific hunting trials.


What's stopping RR owners, in general???   


Another excellent question. I wish I had more/better answers. I hope I'm wrong, but I think where individual owners are concerned (as opposed to breeders), most RR owners are just not interested. They're simply not going to do it if they're not interested.


We just have to find organizations willing to offer our dogs the tests...and owners willing to try it. / What's stopping RR owners, in general???   /  If I could work the field again, I would certainly try the squirrel tests..... :o  Heck, mine are so good at squirrel and rabbit that I don't even need a gun...  ::)  Sandra


The truth is that there is another facet of this that very few want to talk about, but I suspect it's the real "elephant in the middle of the room".  :o

Two main smoke-screen arguments seem to prevail amoung the breeders (as opposed to individual owners).

1. I know this not what you're saying at all Sandra, so please know that I'm not referring to you here, but for many breeders it's easier to say "My dogs 'hunt' all the time on their own... trialling/testing would just be redundant." The simple and obvious answer to that, is that there is a profound difference between prey-drive, and a dog's abilities as a hunting companion. This is self-evident, but like I said, it's a smoke screen meant to distract, not address the issue.

2. The other is the "risk of injury" argument, which again is non-sensical in a breed culture that promotes lure coursing - a venue in which injuries happen with regularity. Like I said, it doesn't have to make sense, it's a smoke-screen, it just needs to distract from the real issue.

I suspect the truth is that many breeders are worried that if their "lion hunting dogs" were actually trialled, they might find out they won't hunt. Think about the damage that could do to a program.  :-[ What happens to your top 10 stud dog when he's tested, and everyone finds out he won't hunt? I think many in the breed will give any excuse they can think of to distract from the real issue, but what it really comes down to is fear that their dogs would not make muster. I sincerely hope that I am dead-wrong about this one, but as much resistance as there is to the idea of a breed specific hunting trial system, it makes me wonder.  :'(









« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 02:47 AM by WAARHEID »

Offline Theresa M. Lyons

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Re: UKC
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2006, 09:48 PM »
Instead of trying to quote each individual person, I am simply going to give my opinions.  I do not plan to sugar coat my opinions on this subject, so I will get straight to the point.

1)  As long as I have been in Ridgebacks (and even before) we here the same argument:  My dog is better because he is conformationally sound - or - My dog is better because he is "real"  performer.  With that comes the "U.S. dogs are too extreme so they can't perform" and the "Overseas dogs are clunky but some can perform." And as long as I can remember there were "performance kennels" and "conformation kennels".  Now, as the events become more popular, we are seeing many top conformation kennels doing both.  What we do not see changing is the reverse.  Why is that?  If anyone plans of giving me the analogy of the golden retrievers and German shepherds being ruined by the show ring, don't waste your breath.  I know this is true.  I have seen it happen.  But, I DO NOT see this happening with the Ridgeback.  No matter what a small percentage of individuals think.

2)  And why doesn't that top ten dog (and or kennel) have all those fancy performance titles like a "real" Ridgeback should have?  Hmmmm....maybe it's because the owners have so much money invested into the show dog that they a) don't want the dog hurt (yeah Matt, that's a reality, not a smoke screen).  b)  don't have the time to take the dog out to do performance events.  Or c) simply have no interest.

3)  We can all argue until the end of the earth regarding the 35 vs. 45 degree shoulder lay.  One thing is for sure...regardless of what side of the fence you are on...if your dog is NOT properly structured, you are doing damage by eventing them.  Maybe not now, but later, you will pay the price for the improperly built front end or rear for that matter. So lets not make that issue about the show dog verses the performance dog argument.

4)  Yes, dog shows are becoming more and more political and often cause us all to wonder what a championship really means.  But let's be real about this.  Lure Coursing...scored by a judge, subjective.  Obedience...scored by a judge, subjective.  And the list goes on.  But you get my point.  Unless it is a first dog crosses the line (like racing) it is all subjective...ergo political. 

5)  And let's talk about hunting for minute?  I am a firm believer (and Matt and I have had this discussion several times) that I can train almost ANY CANINE to do whatever I want it to do.  My Belgian Terv (10 years old) can out course any Ridgeback I have seen in my 15 years.  He can herd, he can protect and he can go all day.  But...he is structurally unsound. He has a horribly straight front, a ewe neck, slipped hocks, feet point in every direction, eye problems and had a seizure a few years ago.  While some of these things come instinctively, he excels at them PURELY ON HEART.  Now my Ridgeback (9 years old) is far superior in his structure, chases the wildlife whenever he can, runs them up a tree and awaits my return (as does my Terv).  He was also taught at an early age (by my herding Terv) that you will not leave the property line.  So what do you think happend when I took him to course?  You got it...crazy at the line...run 75 feet (about the distance of my property line)...stop and come back.  But, alas, when he ran with my Terv, he ran the whole course.  And what do you think he does with my kids now....hmm, herd them.  So what's my point...not really sure because I began to ramble...but I think what I am trying to say is that I really do believe that you can train any dog to whatever event you want them to do and VICE VERSA.  Because they love us.  Because they want to please us.  Because they are our companions with more heart then most humans.

The past 15 years that I have been in this breed, I had to listen to people say things like, "you don't want a Kimani dog, they're too soft, they won't perform" or "just look at the dogs in the Kimani pedigrees, they have no performance titles, because they are just show dogs."  I am hear to say, that the real answer is....are you ready....many of us within our group simply choose to breed show, maybe dabble in performance and have absolutely NO INTEREST in hunting.  But, when our other owners take the time to do performance events, they do excel.  Many in number one racing positions, many BIF winners and also Specialty Triathlon winners.  Many top winners in both the ring and performance events.  Thus proving that with the time, effort and a sound dog, almost anything is possible.

I really do not understand this need to always pit conformation against performance.  At one time, about 10 years ago, it did seem that we were moving in the direction of two different looks.  The pretty as a picture show dog verses the whippity looking coursing dog was becoming the norm.  But then, something happened.  The big ass Ridgeback with all the height, bone and weight (outside the standard) began winning in performance events.  The standard (and some not so standard) top ten dogs started doing performance events.  Many doing very well.  I would venture to say it was because they too were tired of hearing that the eventing dogs were "real" Ridgebacks and the conformation dogs were too extreme or pretty to perform.  Either way and no matter the reason, it is a huge step in the right direction.

And before anyone decides to say that Theresa is a breed person and is trying to set up a smoke screen because she is worried that her dogs can't perform.  I would like to say nonsense.  I simply prefer conformation due to my time constraints.  I like to do performance events and will do them when I can.  I have NO INTEREST in hunting my Ridgeback...for various reasons, but not because of fear of failure!!

Furthermore, I believe temperament is the single most important facet of a canine companion...which is really what our breed is today. 

Theresa : )

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Re: UKC
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2006, 10:44 PM »
Very interesting discussion on all sides.  I can only say that on the majority we are not raising performance or conformation specimens but that of the companion.
So yes health and temperament is what we should be breeding for first and foremost.

Now whatever someone decides tickles their fancy, blows their skirt up, etc. then fine, as Theresa stated they love us and will try very hard to bring that smile to our faces.

So whatever your thing is. Do it, enjoy your dogs.

If you breed, please try very hard once you line up the health and temperament aspect, then breed to and within the standard.

Karen

Offline WAARHEID

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Re: UKC
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2006, 12:18 AM »
Poor Heathe. He was asking about showing in UKC and it has turned into a working v show discussion.

This new discussion is beyond fun, so I'm going to respond to Theresa's recent post, but I will take my response to the Performance area where it will be more topical.  :D

Those that might care to follow it can read it here:
http://rr-forum.com/forum/index.php/topic,742.msg5887



« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 02:14 AM by WAARHEID »

Offline wolwekraal

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Re: UKC
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2006, 03:48 AM »
 ;) real "Indaba"! when a "trivial" question..give several reflections...
we have the same "indaba" in France, in fact...
my "thought", sometimes in "working dogs" we forget the conformation to give greater place to "performance",
 and i really think that some   "politics of show dog"+ of commitee of clubs  give real "barbies dogs"!! :D, 'not only in RR);
 and we can see some champion with not "exc type "in head for example, too tall or  with a body not in the "good type", etc...+ without good temperament in fact...( i'm speaking about my experience in France);
of course, majority of RR are "companion dogs"... ;)
..that's why we are totally addict with!
i'm going to read and read again your posts, for an "excellent" understanding!! ;) :D

lover liver! not only!! all of RR!

Offline caro

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Re: UKC
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2006, 07:46 AM »
Theresa, that was an excellent post.  The only thing I would add is that a lot of RR owners and breeders simply don't have the opportunity to hunt or train their dogs for field work.  (Imagine trying to see if your dog was gunshy while living in the town.  At the first shot you would probably have the local sherriff's office sitting on your doorstep, or at the very least, your neighbor would be there asking if you were crazy shooting off a gun in a built up area!)  Field training takes a lot of time  and if you live in the town and have to drive several hours to even begin training--well a lot of people simply don't have that sort of time.  I know in my case, I would love to course my dogs but in order to practice I have to drive three hours there and three hours back.  That's a whole day gone and I simply can't afford that sort of time on a regular basis. 

I absolutely agree that a structurally sound dog will outlast one whose structure is incorrect, which is why a responsible breeder, even if they were breeding for field work alone, should avoid breeding obvious faults even if the dog is a superb working specimen.  If we started breeding solely for instinct we would probably end up with some of the very wierd hunting dogs one sees roaming the countryside at the end of hunting season.  I know in England that a lot of working Cockers don't look anything like what a Cocker is supposed to resemble, but as they do the job sportsmen have tended to breed them anyway.  Same could be said of a lot of the sporting breeds.
I believe that few of the sled dogs used in the Iditerod are actually pure bred but a mixture that has evolved to produce something that will do the job required.

Perhaps what is needed is a qualifying test for working dogs which they must pass if they are to gain a full championship.  I think this is still the case in the UK.  A gundog must pass a qualifier in the field in order to earn the title of full champion.  Otherwise they are just show champions.  Of course, there are also field champions who probably would never make it into the conformation ring.

Question:  If you had a really good working dog who had failed it's hips but only marginally and was showing no signs of dysplasia, would you go ahead anyway and breed it, simply to preserve the working instinct?

I recall reading in one of the Lion Hound Digests that a few years back one of the Kruger Park bitches had a litter of puppies but the pups could not be registered because KUSA insists that only offspring of dogs with cleared hips can be registered and the bitch was mildly dysplastic.  I wonder what happened to that litter.  I am quite sure that a lot of dogs on remote farms were never X-rayed before they were bred simply because there were no facilities for X-raying anywhere nearby. 

At least here and in Europe and Australia we are now aware that not only should we be breeding structurally correct animals but also healthy ones.  It seems to me that we have indeed made some progress and our dogs are better equipped to do the job they were bred for, should the opportunity arise.

Caroline

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Re: UKC
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2006, 10:21 AM »
No worries....Heathe is fine :)

I have enjoyed this conversation
Heathe Kias Turner
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Re: UKC
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2006, 11:23 AM »
Poor Heathe. He was asking about showing in UKC and it has turned into a working v show discussion.

Oh by the way LOL Heathe is a girl (BIG GRIN)

Heathe
(the girl LOL)
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Re: UKC
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2006, 11:44 AM »

HRMPHFRMPH BRFMFEEPHR FMUU MURPHRBUF

<< Removing Foot From Mouth >>

I so sorry Heathe!  :blush   I've never met a woman with the name Heathe... well, until now.

(Warning - obscure Monty Python refreference:) There can be but one punishment, I must be given a good spanking :kick

I'm really embarrassed, but I'm glad you're such a good sport about it!


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Re: UKC
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2006, 11:50 AM »
I am so used to it...it is a big joke with my friends and I. If people dont think I am a boy, then they call me Heather (thinking I left the r off. LOL

I had a good  friend in school that was a boy named Heath. So we were always Heath "the boy" and Heathe" the Girl".

HK
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Re: UKC
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2006, 07:22 PM »
:D  I only have known of one Heath and I ate it.   ;D

Do you remember the candy bar called Heath Bars.  Chocolate covered toffee and very yummy.
 :P

Sorry couldn't resist. I like names that are off the beaten path.

Karen

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Re: UKC
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2006, 07:17 AM »
Have they stopped making them?  Heath bars that is.  I haven't seen them for a while.  A friend usd to make this delicious cake from Heath bars and meringues.  Full of calories, but well worth it.  I guess since we are all weight conscious these days she doesn't make it any more. 
Caroline

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Re: UKC
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2006, 12:58 PM »
They still make them, and now I have to go find some.  ;)  That cake sounds really good. Another is one called Mississippi Mud Pie or something like that. Lots of chocolate. Anything with chocolate is good in my book.

Sorry Heathe, you inspire the sweet tooth. ;D

As for the calories, well I just skip something else and eat the goodies. lol

Karen


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Re: UKC
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2006, 03:38 PM »
Yep thats me full of calories  ;D

Heathe

If you promise not to tell anyone.....I like heath bars too LOL
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Re: UKC
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2006, 04:33 PM »
Okay Heathe, but next time you share a secret you have to use the invisible ink.

We should start a off topic about our favorite desserts or munchies.
Myself I am crazy about Ice cream, anything chocolate. Or did I mention that already?  ???
 :P
Karen

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Re: UKC
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2006, 01:44 PM »
sweet as it is...this subject has gotten off topic. 
I would suggest a new title for these few posts...and move it to the Anything but dog talk board. 
Dang it!  Now you guyes got me thinking of Heath bar Brownie double chocolate ice cream!
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Re: UKC
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2006, 02:14 PM »
Too late already done. lol  Those wishing to participate join us in off the dog path.
Favorite drinks and favorite sweets.

 ;D  Karen

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Re: UKC
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2006, 02:34 PM »
yes, we did get a tad off topic...but going back again and re-reading all the posts - I find the discussion was good from all sides.

Caroline asks:  Question:  If you had a really good working dog who had failed it's hips but only marginally and was showing no signs of dysplasia, would you go ahead anyway and breed it, simply to preserve the working instinct?

I would not breed the dog, but I might have a second opinion prior to making it a final cut, so to speak.  What I try to explain to my owners PRIOR to them becoming involved in a performace sport...please do preliminary testing on hips AND elbows.

As several people have pointed out - (REGARDLESS if you breed for Performance or for Conformation),  IF the dog has a structural problem you could endanger the dog unknowingly by coursing, weight pulls, agility work.  While a dog may be fine initially, and begin early performance, they could injure themselves before an OFA at 2. 

I am a Nervous Nelly when it comes to my grandbabies...be they 2 or 4 legged.  While I would encourage hunting/field work - I would never allow my GB's to hunt Bear or Wild Boar...even if they could!  But that is just me. 

I think, as Theresa points out, there are those whose 'fun' is conformation...as Matt states, his 'fun' is geared more toward hunting.

I realize that herding, tracking, coursing and agility are not typical performance for An African Hunting Hound.  However, it is a means of competition to prove that the Dog/Bitch isn't only a fine specimen of the breed...but is also able to function as a Team with a human.

Again, not everyone choses to do anything beyond Serious Couch Lounging or CounterSurfing with their RRs.  But wouldn't it be nice if the dogs had the ability to do it all?
Yes, I believe there are more facets to the RR jewel...rough cut as they are!   ;D

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Offline Theresa M. Lyons

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Re: UKC
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2006, 02:47 PM »
To continue on the UKC thread.  I have a question...and PLEASE...anyone who participates in UKC, please do NOT get offended.  I have always wanted to ask these questions, but never found the right forum for it.  Now I have, so here it goes.

While I was doing rescue for the NJ, I found an extremely high amount of UKC championed pedigrees.  When researching, I would find breeder websites bragging about have the Number One Ridgeback in the country, etc, etc, etc.  Coupled with the pedigrees found from petshop puppies, etc, it has never been a highly regarded registry for me.  I have often found breeders that were questionable at best.  

These comments are being made from old observations.  This could simply be the same stigma that used to be placed on people who advertised in the local newspaper to sell a litter.  Or maybe over the past 15 years I have become an "AKC snob."  

So here are my questions:

1)  Is the stigma of this registry still the same as I remember?

2)  If there is anyone on this list that competes in UKC only, could you please explain the pros/cons?

3)  For those competing in both AKC and UKC, could you please explain why both registries?

Theresa : )

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Re: UKC
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2006, 02:54 PM »
Perhaps this is a good time to relate a particular story about a particular bitch.  This was/is a great bitch....highly accomplished in both lure coursing and agility and has/had the temperament to do ANYTHING for her owners, whether it be hunting or the more formal sports.  The kind of bitch the "hunting" folks would find highly desireable.  However....this particular bitch had extremely straight shoulders....i knew not only by looking at her, but also by gaiting her next to my bitch that had a correct shoulder on our road works...my bitch would take one stride to this bitche's two or three.  

Well, this particular bitch is now in her aged years...her shoulders are extremely arthritic, and she becomes lame very easily.  Her "glory years" are catching up with her.  By contrast...my also aged bitch with the correct shoulders hasn't taken a wrong step and moves like she did when she was two.  

Yep...arthritic bitch was a phenomom of her breed by gaining the highest titles in lure coursing and agility in her younger years, but she is now paying the price for her poor  construction.  So while "arthritic" bitch had the desire, but not the construction, and my bitch had the construction, but not the same desire....who is right?  

Just as those that fight for "performance" over "structure" see that they are right, there are those of us that struggle to prove that "structure over performance" is the ultimate goal.  Perhaps the performance dogs DON'T live longer since they may perish due to their inferior structure over time, but in this day and age, I would rather have a healthy and sound dog at 13 than have to put down a much younger dog because its "glory years" put too much of a strain on an incorrect body.

Shara

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Re: UKC
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2006, 03:39 PM »
Hi Theresa,
I won't be offended nor will I consider you a snob!   :D
We did it because we live in Michigan...because this is where the UKC kennel club is home based....AND because there were no RR's at the time...I found it a diversion, a challenge...and a rather sneaky way for me to get to see my daughter who was then living in Kalamazoo and Western Michigan University was her college. 

Frankly, I find snobs in everything...including UKC.  As you have pointed out there are suspicious kennels, pedigrees, dogs, breeders in UKC.  But, I can point out the same, if not MORE in AKC.  As for dogs with dubious pedigrees ending in Pet Shops...the same goes for AKC and tho' not as many...they are also from Canada!   :o  Shock and Awe?!?!?!

Personally, I think UKC is not as political as AKC - actually a good place for a child or a newbie to learn how to show a dog.  You will find some people and judges that are friendly and some who are not.  (Same as AKC)  If you want another venue to show your dogs or bring out your new puppy and there aren't any AKC shows...why not?

If you like to do conformation AND performance...you will find it at UKC shows too, and slightly different, another challenge.  Because they began as a Working, Hunting dog registry you will find more of them in the show.


So here are your questions and my answers in Maroon:

1)  Is the stigma of this registry still the same as I remember?

It probably is for those who still don't participate...some things never change.  You know the saying, You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him wipe his shoes.  or something like that   :-\

2)  If there is anyone on this list that competes in UKC only, could you please explain the pros/cons?
N/A for me, as I participate in Canada, AKC and UKC. 
3)  For those competing in both AKC and UKC, could you please explain why both registries?
I can only speak to the RR's.  Since RRs were only recognized in AKC in 1955, the UKC registry had to begin to build their own data base for RR's, much as I would think happened when RRs with African Kennel Club registry came to USA. 

I would also think that those who distain the UKC would also feel the same way about the International and Mexican clubs and Registries.  I noticed that there is another one forming in the Detroit/Metro area...founded by a man who works closely with AKC shows...and Rare Breed Exhibits.  So this will probably soon be the next registry to be dissed by those thinking only AKC shines.   ;D 

I hope you don't take my comments to heart...I am merely responding to your questions in my normal tongue-in-cheek manner.  Life is too short to take things so seriously...so I am not in the least offended by your questions.  Those who know me know who I am...and those who can ignore me   ;)

Sandra
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Offline Theresa M. Lyons

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Re: UKC
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2006, 03:41 PM »
You hit it right on the head with your comments.  Structure should always come before performance.  Just because a dog has the heart to excel, does not mean it has the structure to ensure golden years without sufferage.  

The real problem is that many people see their dogs as having the proper structure and can not see the glaring faults that exist.  Unfortunately this is a problem we will never rid ourselves of.

Theresa : )

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Re: UKC
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2006, 04:20 PM »
Sandra,

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions.  This is tough thing for me as I have so many different thoughts on the UKC.

I have SO MANY problems with some of the things that the AKC does and some of folks they choose to lay down with.  BUT...I also believe that they are the best registry and that is why so many belong to vs. the others.

I guess I also can't stand seeing RR breeders in the U.S. claiming on their websites that they have the Number One Ridgeback or the Number One Hound, when they don't even have AKC championships nor do they take the time to do it.   I really have no problem with people with AKC championships obtaining other titles, provided they have an AKC title first. 

I know it sounds like AKC snobbery, but I can not help myself.  If I saw two ads in an all-breed magazine that side by side showed an AKC Champion next to the Number One UKC RR and/ or Hound, I would not be impressed by the UKC titled dog. 

For instance, unless I have their point system wrong. 
If I win my class I receive 10 points.  If I win Best of Winners, I receive 10 points.  If I win Breed, I receive 15 points.  Can these points be combined if I take BOB from the classes?  I need a total of 100 points to become a champion.  To become a Grand Champion I must win from the champion class 5 times.

The UKC's number one RR for 2005 had a total of 57 points.  Perceivably, if I went to 4 shows, winning BOB every time I could be the number one RR for the UKC??  To me, compared to the AKC's number one RR being over a thousand, it pales in comparison.  Unless I am misunderstanding their point system for top ten as I did not see rules listed.

The UKC's highest amount of points won for a Number One dog in 2005 was 715 points for an American Pit Bull Terrier.  Almost all other breeds number one dogs were well under 100 points, many below 50.  It seems that while this registry has been around a long time, it lacks something or it would be more popular.  Am I wrong?

Also, how do you find out how many RR's are registered and competing in these breed events? 

Theresa : )

p.s.  for the record..I am talking solely about the conformation aspects of the UKC, not performance.

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Re: UKC
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2006, 04:40 PM »

The story about the debilitatingly straight shouldered bitch, perhaps unintentionally, implies that the bitch would have been bred by a performance breeder. The truth is that breeding such a dog is anathema to a performance breeder.


The implication that performance breeders are willing to sacrifice true functional conformation for working mentality is patently wrong.


A knowledgable performance breeder understands functional canine anatomy as well as (if not better than) any knowledgable show breeder. Let's be very clear. Performance breeders will not breed a dog with a crippling conformational defect... it is not in their interests to - think about it.

The real difference between a show breeder and a performance breeder, is one of degree in terms of conformation (ie Conformational Extremes vs Conformational Moderation), and one of priority in terms of function (Perfection in Conformation as ultimate goal vs Working Dog that exudes breed type as ultimate goal).

The show breeder breeds for the conformationally perfect dog. That's a noble goal. They are then content to ignore working mentality, or leave it to chance.

The performance breeder breeds for the TOTAL DOG. I contend that that is a higher goal.

One of the stops on the ARG's Big Game Tour this year was with a performance breeder to evaluate the Ridgebacks on the tour on some recently trapped Wild Boar. Fairly quickly, the breeder named his favorite of the group. I asked him why he had chosen that particular dog. Interestingly this performance breeder cited that Ridgeback's working mentality AND his conformation. "That Ridgeback uses his nose to find the boar better than the other dogs, he forces the boar to turn when chasing, he bays harder than the other dogs. He is very well built. Especially his feet, better than the others, he has really nice cat feet." That performance breeder wasn't interested in just mentality, nor just conformation. He was interested in the total dog. This typifies knowlegable performance breeders.

In the hands of knowlegable performance breeders function-focused breeding actually produces superior working conformation. This afore mentioned notion that "structure should always come before performance" is a contradiction in terms for two reasons.

- - - The first is historical. The conformation/performance discussion is not a chicken/egg debate. Function has always come first. It is a historical fact. Almost all breeds were developed for a particular job. Those that did their job best were bred... those offspring which did the same job best were bred... a type emerged... and THEN a written standard was (eventually) developed. Function has always come first, to deny this is to deny history.

- - - The second is the heralding of the AKC show ring and its conformation titles as the gold-standard of superior conformation. This fails the breeds in question in part because it relies on non-performance judges to understand how working conformation really effects performance, and it also relies on non-performance breeders to exhibit good, working, breeding stock to be evaluated in the ring. In that kind of system, it is no surprise that the theoretics of "good" conformation (what gets rewarded in the show ring), and the reality of proven, functional conformation, are often two very different things. We needn't look very far for proof of this.

1. Long term, despite our best efforts, we can't do better than Mother Nature. Nature's canid (family) include the coyote, the dog, the fox, the jackal, and the wolf. More important to our discussion is nature's version of genus Canis. Which looks like this:

Genus Canis (dogs, jackals, and wolves)
 - Species Canis adustus (side-striped jackal)
 - Species Canis aureus (golden jackal)
 - Species Canis latrans (coyote)
 - Species Canis lupus (gray wolf)
 - - Subspecies Canis lupus dingo (dingo)
 - - Subspecies Canis lupus familiaris (dog)
 - Species Canis mesomelas (black-backed jackal)
 - Species Canis rufus (red wolf)
 - Species Canis simensis (Simian jackal)

So, as opposed to even some of the more divergent Canids, let's focus on the more specific Canines.
Golden Jackal on the move

Natures dog has prick ears. Nature's dog has long loins and therefore, is not square. Natures's dog has very moderate angles. Despite all of these 'incorrect' conformational traits, nature's dog has good movement. Show-ring theoretics are what they are. Nature doesn't judge its dogs on theoretics. Nature breeds dogs that work (predate). Nature breeds dogs that survive. Breeding for function, produces correct working conformation.


2. Show bred greyhounds are bred to the official Greyhound standard. The standard (in theory) describes a functional, large coursing dog. Though it's incidence is low (actually true with all sighthounds), hip dysplasia can be, and is, found in AKC greyhounds.

However. There is ZERO occurrence of hip dysplasia in NGA greyhounds. NGA greyhounds are bred for performance. By breeding for true performance (not theoretical) the NGA's performance focused breeders have completely bred hip dysplasia out of their lines. The AKC greyhound breeding community has not accomplished this same feat despite the fact that their ostensible goal is conformational perfection. Breeding for function, produces correct working conformation.

3. Conformation focused breeding to extinction. From the working perspective, examples of this phenomena abound, and we all know them well... German Shepherds, Irish Setters, Standard Poodles, etc so I won't develop that any further. However, even from a purely biological standpoint we can see that the supposedly breed-standard/conformation focused show breeding world, some breeds are no longer physically capable of whelping, and must deliver by c-section. A dog whose conformation prevents it from birthing young is not a dog that survives, yet they are being rewarded for it in the ring.

4. Dr. Dan Belkin understood both dogs, and canine conformation, better than 99% of AKC judges do today. He proved time and time again that the theoretics of show-ring conformation, had very little to do with what actually produced top dogs both on the hunt, and on the coursing field... including the veterans. I make the point about the veterans because the afore mentioned notion that a "great today, despite horrible conformation, train wreck tomorrow" kind of dog is of any value to a performance breeder is absurd in the extreme.

Dr Belkin also made the point about "function first" being the historically honest perspective, Of course he did so with more eloquence than I ever could.:

Dogs are a very plastic species genetically, so you can make just about anything you want out of them, as you can see by going to an all-breed show. Salukis, like many other breeds, were originally bred for function. The best coursing or hunting dog, for the ground and quarry where it lived, was the one that was bred from. That makes sense. But then a standard was written describing the appearance of the functional breed, and implying that its appearance was the cause of the function. Wrong! The function led to the appearance.

If we want to try to preserve the abilities for which a breed was originally created, we cannot do it by just looking at the dog, because what it looks like doesn't tell us what it can do. People who have coursed dogs for any length of time learn that all their preconceived correlations between form and function have a lot of exceptions. After a while, they come down to the knowledge that just about any dog might be a good one, and they can't tell until they run it and see. So people who are breeding dogs that look like Salukis aren't necessarily breeding functional Salukis.


When one understands as Dr Belkin did that every dog that looks like a particular pure breed might not actually function as one, it becomes clear only by breeding for breed-type in both conformation and function do we truly preserve the breed's type. That breeding for the total dog, is the only way to truly preserve the breed.






Offline WAARHEID

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Dr. Dan Belkin PhD.
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2006, 04:44 PM »

For those not familiar with his work, Dr. Belkin is considered god-like in his status among knowledable and educated "performance" breeders. He was a dog judge, a hunter, and a scientist. He received his Doctorate in biology at the University of Florida in 1961. He was an evolutionary biologist specializing in physiological and ethological ecology, supported by a National Institutes of Health Career Research Fellowship at the University of Florida Medical School. He also taught respiration and nutrition in the physiology department. His interest in Salukis arose from his experience in falconry. He began flying hawks in 1947, and flew passage peregrines from 1956 to 1970. Dan has had a lifelong interest in predator/prey ethology. In 1971, he abandoned his scientific career in order to course Salukis full time, which he continued to do until 1985. He remained active by judging and otherwise watching Salukis. Dan married his wife, Laura, in 1961. They had Salukis instead of children, and are responsible for the Bayt Shahin prefix.


His treatise on Functional Salukis is perhaps the best articulation of the relationship between structure and function from a real working perspective, working dogs/show dogs, and the supreme short comings of our current conformation evaluation systems, in existence today.

It was transcribed, and is available on-line here:

http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/belkin.htm

If you consider yourself a show or performance person, I would encourage you to read it in its entirety. It will change the way you look at dogs, dog shows, and performance events.


« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 04:55 PM by WAARHEID »

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Re: UKC POINT SYSTEM
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2006, 03:18 PM »
Theresa, you have your facts slightly incorrect.  If you had used the information I had originally sent you when you asked me about UKC for your magazine article a couple years back, you would have seen that there have been changes since UKC first began.  Competition Wins ARE required in order to get a title...see below:


Depending upon your breed, the point system to earn a Championship title differs. Point system #1 is based upon breeds without varieties.  (RR's do not have a variety class)

#1: A first place class win: 10 points

Best of sex (Best Male or Best Female): 15 points

Best of Winners (must have Best Male/Best Female compete against each other or the class is not held nor are points awarded): 10 points

Point system #2 is based upon breeds with varieties.

#2: A first place class win: 5 points

Best of Variety (Male or Female): 8 points
Best of sex (Best Male or Best Female): 10 points
Best of Winners (must have Best Male/Best Female compete against each other or the class is not held nor are points awarded): 12 points

There are no additional points for any other wins (BOB, Groups or BIS wins).

Here is how competition is calculated and championship requirements.

The requirements for a Championship is a minimum of 100 CH points and three wins with competition under three different Judges. Competition is defined as follows:

As long as the Judge does not withhold a placement or higher award then the appropriate points will be awarded to the dog, regardless of how many dogs are entered at the class level in a breed. However, there are no additional Championship points awarded for going Best of Breed nor will a Best of Winners class be held or points awarded if the Best Male and Best Female winners are not present for this competition.
Competition is credited in one of the following manners.

1. The class dog must win a minimum of their Best of Sex (Best Male or Best Female) and win over another class dog (any class) of the same breed, same sex.

2. If the dog is the only one of its sex then it must also win a minimum of their Best of Sex and beat the other Best of Sex for Best of Winners, In other words the Best Male and the Best Female would compete and the dog awarded the Best of Winners would receive an appropriate competition win.

3. If the class dog is awarded the Best of Breed win OVER either Champions or Grand Champions of the same breed then competition would be credited.

Here is where it gets more complicated.

If yours is the only dog entered in your breed in order to gain competition, then the dog would have to either:

a) place in Group competition if groups are held, beating another dog in their respective group or

b) be awarded a Best In Multi-Breed or Reserve Best In Multi-Breed
Show.

Here are the requirements for a GRCH title.

The requirements to earn the GRCH title is as follows: A Champion dogs must win the Champions class a minimum of 5 times with competition (a minimum of 3 Champions shown in this class) under 3 different judges. UKC has also expanded the way a GRCH title is earned. A Champion dog may earn a competition win towards its GRCH title if it wins BOB over a Grand Champion and the total number of dogs entered in the both the Champion class and the Grand Champion class meets or exceeds the minimum 3 dog requirement.

Of course, in order to win you MUST have competition. 

Sandra
« Last Edit: July 31, 2006, 03:30 PM by Keeper »
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Offline Keeper

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Re: UKC Conformation Judges
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2006, 03:28 PM »
FYI
You will see there are AKC judges listed among the UKC judges.  Therefore, if they are knowledgeable enough to judge AKC events and the dogs that attend, would you not expect them to be able to judge quality/non-quality dogs in UKC? 

BTW, according to an affilate of UKC whom I spoke with recently, AKC took a page from UKC when they started to refuse to award ribbons for unworthy dogs.  Not to say that either organization makes a habit of doing so.....

Check out the Conformation Judges - those who show AKC may be surprised to see their favorite judge listed in UKC also.
http://www.ukcdogs.com/ConformationJudges.htm

Please remember that Ridgebacks weren't recognized in UKC until only a few years ago.

Sandra
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Offline Theresa M. Lyons

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Re: UKC
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2006, 04:30 PM »
Sandra Writes:  Theresa, you have your facts slightly incorrect.  If you had used the information I had originally sent you when you asked me about UKC for your magazine article a couple years back, you would have seen that there have been changes since UKC first began.>>
-------------------------

I know that things change, grow and usually become more efficient.  This is why I opted to get involved in this discussion.  I wanted to try and understand about their system and the reasons why people show here vs. the AKC. 

I went directly to the UKC website to find out what the current point system is today.  I did not post in the detail that you did, but the basic gist was there (except I put BOB instead of Best of Sex).   Now that the entire point schedule has been posted, I still have the same questions as before:

That being said, I did not see in your post nor on the UKC website how they calculate their top ten rankings in conformation.  Nor did I see anything about number of dogs participating in each breed.  I emailed them, but have not gotten a response to date.  I am trying to understand the benefits of doing conformation with the UKC.

I also briefly read their RR Standard and find it most interesting.  Established in 1992, they have several disqualification, including:  Unilateral or bilateral cryptorchid. Viciousness or extreme shyness. Overshot or undershot bite. Albinism. 

 I would love to know how they developed this standard, if any RR people helped them or who was involved in creating the standard that they are using.

For anyone interested in reading their standard for the RR, here is the link:
www.ukcdogs.com/RegUKCBreeds.htm

Theresa : )

p.s.  I am not sure who you were addressing regarding judges.  I have no issue with AKC judges participating in other registries.  It's their choice.  I would also expect them to pick dogs of quality as they would with the AKC dog shows. 

Offline Theresa M. Lyons

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Re: UKC
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2006, 04:47 PM »
ALAS...something about the top ten calculations.  I found this in the Frequently Aksed Questions link on their site.  Odd place, but o.k., here it goes:

****Effective January 1, 2006, Top Ten points will be computed as follows: Dogs winning Best of Breed will be awarded 1 Top Ten point for each dog of their breed defeated in competition. For example, a Golden Retriever winning Best of Breed with 2 dogs competing will be awarded 1 Top Ten point. Top Ten points are awarded at the breed level only, and are used to rank the top dogs in breed competition. Remember, Group wins/placements, BIS/MBS RBIS/RMBS do not count towards Top Ten since this program is Breed based. The points are cumulative from Jan 1-Dec 31 each year. ****

The UKC's number one RR for 2005 had a total of 57 breed points. 
(The #10 dog finished with 9 points)

The AKC's number one RR for 2005 had a total of 2,025 breed points.
 

Theresa : )

Offline Keeper

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Re: UKC RR Standard
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2006, 04:49 PM »
 :D  As you stated:  "I also briefly read their RR Standard and find it most interesting.  Established in 1992, they have several disqualification, including:  Unilateral or bilateral cryptorchid. Viciousness or extreme shyness. Overshot or undershot bite. Albinism.  

 I would love to know how they developed this standard, if any RR people helped them or who was involved in creating the standard that they are using."

No it was not me that helped them.    :D  They have their own staffers who decide this just as AKC and Canada...and I would surmise the rest of the world/countries.  I would imagine this would follow from the rest of their standards...though I have not read them all, I seem to remember it being in more than one of the standards.

Even though AKC only has one disqualification...I could see not allowing the above, it makes sense since the majority of the traits are can be considered genetic.  I am not going to argue the reasons for showing in one or the other...but I would hate to think that just because there are those who chose to show in other venues, such as UKC, Canada, International...and many others as well as AKC - that there really ARE snobs who look down their noses at those who do.     ???     :-\     ;)

Since they recently did another change...and I don't have the updated rule book yet, I can't answer your question.  But, I will do so as soon as I do have it.  I do know that I have called Kalamazoo UKC and received immediate responses in the past.  Perhaps Eileen would have your answer...wasn't she the one who wrote the article for your magazine?

However, everything is subject to change...just like AKC charging for things they never did in the past...even if it is their fault.  Example:  they typed the wrong infomation on one of my Litter Registrations and charged me to change it...had I not seen the error or refused it would have cost me $60. at a later to date to update it.  Understandably paperwork costs money...but that was their fault not mine.     >:(

Sandra  
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Offline caro

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Re: UKC
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2007, 04:35 PM »
Sep 15; S1 Betty Umberto-Wells JS (GRP1) ABD RT (GRP2) EF (GRP3) WH (GRP4) BRIT (GRP5) ALKAI (GRP6) SS (GRP7) APBT SFT (GRP8) CKCS; Russell Beach (GRP6) BSD (AA/CP)

I am probably being very dumb, but I can't figure out what these abbreviations are.  GRP1, etc. and then RT, EF, WH, BRIT, ALKAI, SS, etc.  I looked for an explanation on the site but there didn't seem to be any. 

Caroline

Offline kitoyogi

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Re: UKC
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2007, 08:06 PM »
I had a difficult time figuring them out at first too and I know others did to.  Really strange way to do it.  The abbreviations are the breed and GRP# is the group # for the breed.  Looks like this show is a limited breed show for only these breeds.  The UKC will have shows with limited breeds.  Kinda weird.

ABD RT = American Bull Dog, Rottweiler (GRP1 = Guardians)
EF = English Foxhound (GRP2 = Scenthounds)
WH = Welsh Hound (GRP3 = Sighthounds)
BRIT = Brittany Spaniel (GRP4 = Gun Dogs)
ALKAI = Alaskan Klee Kai (GRP5 = Northern Breed)
SS =  Not sure on this one - either Std Schnauzer or Shetland Sheepdog  (GRP6 = Herding)
APBT SFT = American Pit Bull Terrier  Smooth Fox Terrier (GRP7 - Terrier)
CKCS = Cavalier King Charles Spaniel (GRP 8 - Companion)
BSD = Belgium Sheep Dog (i think) but I don't know what the AA/CP means but it could be codes for Variety.

An all breed show would appear like this:

Colorado: LONGMONT (I) CONF AGIL OBED, TWIN PEAKS DOG CLUB

Jul 21; S1 Sandra Shaw JS GUARD HERD BSD (AA/CP); Jeanne Heger SCENT SIGHT NORTH; Fred Lanting GUN TERR COMP; Don Cuda AGIL; Pamela Moore OBED Agil Trial 7:30 am Obed. Trial 8:30 am Show 9:30 am NLC: Total Dog
MaryAnne Draper
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