puppy class frustration

[lilacocelot]

I have been going to a puppy preschool class, my puppy Harley is almost 4 months old. Feeling frustrated, really questioning whether the total positive way of training works for us. Wondering if I need to seek out someone more familiar with the Ridgeback mindset?
I am interested in  hearing from other RR puppy owners that have taken puppy classes and what their experience was/is.
Thanks!

[Jenn09]

Hey!
Our girl is 6 months and we did a postive training/reward based puppy class.  We found she was the last dog to listen in the class (which was always a delight!) and that she needed a combo of reward based and tough love (for lack of a better word).  If I say "leave it" if she has a sock in her mouth, she runs and its a game, versus if I say "Eh!!!! No!!! LEAVE IT!!" Then she drops it.  We just kind of did a combo.  Not sure if that's much help.  However, if you want her to do something, where she's not in trouble, she definatly responds better to a calm voice and a treat!  Just take the good and bad out of the class and make it your own!
Jenn

[sarah yates]

i think puppy classes, especially obedience, with a ridgeback is very challenging. i've actually stopped and train my dogs at home (i'm not saying this is the right way to go about). if you're a first time ridgeback owner, stick with it because what these classes really do is train you. then you can apply your learned behaviors to situations outside of class.

ridgebacks are hard because they like to make a fool out of you in front of everyone else, and they're quite good at it, so our egos get a bit bruised. so don't let it get to you, be firm and consistent and it will pay off.

sarah

[caro]

Sarah's last sentence puts it in a nutshell.  Think of puppy class as a means of teaching your puppy to play nice with other dogs and people.  I wouldn't worry too much if he doesn't sit right off.  Just persevere at home and one of these days he will surprise you and sit, at which time you shout and yell and make a huge deal about the fact that he has actually learned to listen to you.  It will last all of ten seconds and then  you have to start again.  Patience is the most important attribute for a puppy owner.  If he does something really wrong, like grabbing a steak off the counter and running off with it, then you are quite justified in grabbing him by the scruff of the neck and telling him in a very loud voice "No" and whatever else you want to add so that he knows you are unhappy with his behavior.  But smacking him is probably not the best idea though I believe sometimes it is necessary, particularly when what he is doing is actually a threat to his health and well being. 

I'll give you an example;  Years ago, my uncle (an extremely accomplished dog trainer) was riding with his Golden Retriever bitch when she ducked through a fence and started chasing sheep.  Now in Ireland where he lived, chasing sheep will get you shot by the local farmer.  My uncle caught his bitch and used his riding crop on her.  She never chased sheep again!  And she lived a good long life devoted to my uncle who never raised more than his voice to her.  The thing was, she had to learn an important lesson quickly or she would not have survived.  The law does not look kindly on dogs threatening a farmer's livelihood. 

Caroline

[CA in TO]

When I finish the current class with Trouble, I will have been through 6 classes with 2 dogs in less than 3 years. Our trainer is totally positive methods.
We suffered through a lot of your experience with Sara. Then I started really watching her in class. Her learning method was to watch the others a number of times before she would actually attempt the task. It was almost as if she wasn't going to do something unless she totally understood it first. Then she'd do it once or twice and then refuse again.

Neither of my dogs will tolerate boring and repetitive. It needs to remain fun.

Our trainer is clear with us that once you know that your pup understands what is wanted, you do not repeat yourself. You ask for what you want and if you do not get it you follow with a command. Give that a chance and then it's time for a "corrective reprimand" That's the tone of voice change that is implicit (I think) in Jenn's example. Our classes were also upbeat, with lots of changes of activity. That was vital.

At some point for both Sara and Trouble, all the various pieces just fell together. Jon still talks about Sara (class nickname was 'the wild child') and then follows with gushing compliments about how she turned out to be one of his star pupils. He also reminds me --- regularly when Trouble won't "perform" --- about how my frustration with Sara was totally unwarranted.

Don't know if any of that was helpful but it's my experience.
RRs aren't labs. They have a mind of their own. But that's why we love them.

[Safi]

Our Safi is 6 months old and we have gone through this problematic training as well I would like peoples opinion on one thing though .. I was told by a local RR owner that it is a bad idea to let anyone but the owners of an RR do the training during class .. i.e. no letting the instructor take over or use them for examples. Our current instructor has been doing that to us and I am starting to find it very irritating. Safi will get all wiggle butt for the instructor now and she is barely listening to me until after we are out of class. She is also not really responding to treats much anymore .. I can put her favorite treat right in her mouth, but if she is focused on something else she will just drop it on the ground and go.

I am really considering changing instructors and going to a non treat training instructor .. I agree .. I have had to do the tough love thing a few times to correct some of Safi's behaviour and she only needed it a couple of times to figure out that what she was doing was wrong .. Things like jumping on me when feeding.. my solution .. every time she jumped on me I would put down the empty bowl .. two days later and she lays down in her spot and waits for me to give her the ok to goto her food bowl I love how smart RR's are sometimes.

[caro]

I would find it extremely irritating to have somebody else take my dog and train it.  The point of going to class is to make your dog respond to your command, not to somebody else's.  Either have a talk with your trainer and explain that while your dog is responding to him, he is not responding to you.  If he doesn't understand your problem, then find another trainer who does.

Caroline

[Loki]

Even though Loki was no longer a puppy when we rescued him I had to start from scratch and train him as I would train a puppy because he did not know anything. Key to successful training was a combination of what Carol described (must be fun), food reward and a patience (read 2 hours of work per day). Steve believe it or not you did follow the food based reward when you put the food down for not jumping - that is how positive reinforcement works - good behaviour gets rewarded and you simply did not put the food down when your dog jumped (you did not reward jumping). I did the same thing with Loki - if he moved from the down-stay I would make him wait for his dinner a bit longer and my older dog would get the food first. This did two things for him - thought him patience (which he did not have at all in the beginning) and his down-stay was perfect within a week. I still make him wait at the door when we are leaving the house - walking through that door is very exciting for him because he likes his walks so much. After 2 years he can now sits by the door automatically and waits for my other dog to go through, then me and they he goes. Yes, it really took two years for him to get hold of his self-control. If he bolted through the door before he was released, we would all go in the house and we would sit and wait for a few minutes and try again - thus my comment about the time and patience. I never used food in this situation - going through that door was a reward in itself.

Loki also learned from watching other dogs - this approach (having him in a class and watching other dogs not reach) is still key to his dog-to-dog aggression rehab. When he is in a class with other dogs he does not react and he does his exercises because he can see the other dogs are doing them too. When his does well I can see in his body language how proud he is of himself.

Key to Loki's appreciation for treats is that if he does not do something I know he knows how to do, I wait - sometimes a minute or longer. He eventually obeys the command (yes he remembers what I asked even a minute later - I guess this is why we say the RRs are stubborn). BUT when he waits that long - I say "good, nice try" and I do not reward. Then I ask him to do the same command again - and most of the time he responds right away. I reward that. This gives him contrast when it comes to the timing of his response.

Yelling and frustration do not work - he just shuts down. I have not raised my voice in 1.5 years now - it just does not work. Change of the tone however does, as Carol said, first "ask" then "tell" him to do it.
How do I make it fun - we go for walks every day. First we just walk for about 20 min at a very fast pace so he can get rid of some of the pant-up energy. Then I stop and ask him to do 2-3 sit-stays and down-stays. Then I tell him "all done" and we run really fast for a couple of minutes ( I cannot keep up with him for more than that :-)). Then we walk again for about 10 min and we repeat the exercises. So the whole "exercise set" is no longer than 2-3 min per set and we do it 4-5 time during our walk. If he shows interest in a stick on the ground while he is working, I use that as a reward and to play some tug for a minute or two. Our walks are about an hour - twice a day so that spreads the exercises nicely and it gives him time to have fun and work at the same time.

If there is a squirrel in sight and it is safe (we are far away from any road on our walks) - I ask him to sit and then I release him and he can go and bark up the tree where the squirrel is. This is by far the best reward for him and also the best fun I could imagine. You should see his automatic sits when he sees a squirrel :-) So you do not need food to be the only reward. Find something you puppy really likes and make it a reward for the good response to the asked behaviour and stick with a simple "nice try" for anything but the good response.

I HAD to work with Loki myself - delegating training to a trainer did not work at all - he responded to the trainer but not me; and the behaviors he learned did not last. The fact that I work with him allows us to build a bond and mutually respect and trust. It took almost 2 years for Loki to trust me (please do not forget he is a rescue). In the last 6 months I have noticed that he looks to me for direction and for instructions and to me that is the sign of trust. I will contrast that with the walks my husband has with him - they are not the same. Do not get me wrong, Loki will obey the command - but the body language is different and the speed and consistency of his respond is variable (his recall is 100% consistent with me - but he choses what he wants to do if my husband calls him). Even my older dog Darko (the mastiff) does not listen well to my husband. For example, if I tell Darko to do a "down" command and my husband gives him the "break" (release) command Darko does not move until I say "break". Quite funny - but not to my husband :-) I told you this just to illustrate that it is very important that you work and train you puppy - not someone else.

I hope our experiences help a bit. Betsa

[Safi]

Thanks for the great response Betsa! I do agree that the feeding bowl was food reward based So glad I am seeing the same behaviours and training problems everyone else is and I have already booked an appointment to a higher end dog trainer to see if their philosophy is any better.

[melissap]

Please sign your posts new peeps - it helps a great deal when we are able to respond to you by name rather than go back through all your posts to look up your intro's.

puppy classes are a great way to socialize your pup, but you need to work with your pups at home as well.

"positive methods" are best, but that is not to imply that you should not be strong leaders and setting clear boundaries when your pup acts up or exhibits behaviors you do not want to have an 80-100 lb dog exhibiting.

Giving a pup a correction that is firm but fair is also important. You have to be consistant and give a correction every time they choose to behave that way - and a few firm but fair corrections should be enough.

I would ask your breeders to suggest trainers that you may want to try. Above all, find one who you respect and if you do not feel comfortable with the trainer taking your dog - tell them No thanks, you would prefer to do it yourself & they use another pup in class for the demonstration.

Melissa

[georgejr]

  We found she was the last dog to listen in the class
Jenn

i guess if we wanted labs we would have bought them, right?

-george

[melissap]

I have known a few labs who were the WORST in class, so I am not sure that it is quite that simple.
Each pup has it's own personality and each trainer (owner) has a different level of experience.

I think finding a trainer who works on good principles who takes the time to work with you and your dog is very important.
They should take the time to speak with you about what you are having trouble with and give you tools to address it.

There are always methods that work for some, (dogs and owners) that do not work for others. Having one that is reccommended can be a great place to start - but if you do not care for this one, keep looking for someone who you respect and works well for you and your dog! For the 1st puppy classes, it is more about socializing the pup - but when you move up to the next level of training class, it is even more important to find someone who really fits the bill. (for you and your dog)

That said, you have to listen to your trainer and take the advice that is given  and follow through!

Melissa

[Safi]

re: you have to listen to your trainer and take the advice that is given and follow through!

Even when she tells me I should call my RR with a high pitched voice using her name quickly a 1/2 dozen times so that she is excited enough to come to me?
I think I was just about ready to snap this past weekend, but fortunately I have a good muzzle. I sort of wonder how tuned in Safi is to my mood during those periods.

Steve

[melissap]

There is nothing unusual about that Steve. Breeders call the pups that way "puppy puppy puppy" and the whole litter usually comes running.

Does it get your pups attention?

Remember her age - she needs to know that coming to you is a "good thing"
it is not until they are more mature that they obey with 1 verbal command given sternly- it is a part of conditioning at this age. Your puppy's attention span (much like a child) is rather short right now.

If you do not "like" the trainer - find another one, but if you are paying someone for thier time and advice who has experience and good success, follow through on what they ask - or find another trainer who you respect enough to take advice from 
as you and your pup progress.

Melissa

[Jenn09]

I love the lab comment!  Our class consisted of 2 golden retrievers, 2 black labs, a bulldog and an australian shepherd along with our ridgie.  Let's just say that while everyone else was practicing "sit, down, sit" our puppy was still doing sit!  She NEVER listened in the class but at home she was better.  The labs and everyone else was so eager to please while Ripley was not super easy.  We had read they're not easy dogs to train, stubborn not stupid.  Now at 6 months, we're firm but she definatly responds better to asking then telling.  My husband laughs (or other guests that try it) because in a stern voice he'll say a command and she ignores him.  I say "say it nicely" and BAM she does it.  It's pretty funny.  She does however need a good stern tone once in a while! 
By the end of the 8 weeks, we were done with puppy class.  We almost flipped a coin to see who had to go.  I agree with puppy class is for you to learn and at home is where you train.  Good luck!

[melissap]

Lying down, is a very "submissive pose" for a dog to take. Some are more comfortable with this than others 

[lilacocelot]

Thank you all for sharing your experiences and comments. Very helpful. I will keep going to the classes, knowing that it is a good intro to his puppyhood socialization. I was getting frustrated with the classes... Harley being 'the bad boy in class' who barked at the other puppies, not into the 30-50 reps that the trainer said to do- like come on, he knows Sit and Down, he is not going to want to do that many of 'em!
(He actually learns the tricks or commands very quickly.)
Then when he is 'over it', he starts getting worked up and nippy and acting like he wants out of the room. The trainer calls him 'active'.
I also question the amount of so many 'treats' that are constantly fed to him during the class, to 'behave' or to distract him.
Anyways, will try and see this puppy class out and keep looking for another trainer for the next step of training.

Loni

[heiditr]

We are now training our 4th ridgeback, and we use puppy training class as 1. social training (yes, we can be around other dogs, be on a leash and not play) 2. simple commands as sit and down. And I never try to train with her before she has calmed down and she is paying attention to me. Also, during the lesson, if she starts to lose attention, we just find a quiet place to sit for a few minutes or she spends a few minutes in the car. I have never had a training class without at least two timeouts. And I decide when it is time to take the timeouts, not the instructor. I have had classes where all we did was to sit and watch.

Nia is now 6 months, she knows a lot of commands and offer them willingly. She is so funny when she comes over and goes through her "motions" just to see if she can get us to give her a treat. We have used a clicker this time, and she really gets the idea and when she understands that she has a 5 min lesson she starts wagging her tail and is really happy.

For us, the most important command is to call her back when she is off leash. Nia is probably the most independent ridgeback we have had, so positive reward is the only thing that works. We use different commands when we call her back. "Komme" is used as just come here and get a treat. "Plass" is used when she is supposed to come and stand/sit on my left side. Whistling is the same as "komme". I loose my voice every now and then, so whistling is ok. Later we will start only hand signals as commands, now we just put them on top of the commands we have  learned her. Another command worth learning is "Frii" or free in English This is a positive command, a reward for the dog. like he can think "Yes! I did the right thing, now I can run and play some more! Yeah!"

I believe that ridgebacks are quick learners, and repetition doesn't bring out the best in them. Ridgebacks can think for themselves, and if you give a command that makes no sense in the dogs mind, he'll just play deaf.

A lesson I had to learn was to quit training at the correct moment. If your dog does a command correctly, it is so tempting to try it again, and again... resulting in instant deafness.

Good luck with your puppy. It is hard and frustrating work, but worth it.

Heidi

[melissap]

Excellent post and great advice Heidi.

Loni, good for you for making the committment. RR's are very food motivated so that is not a bad thing  if the treat is given at the proper time. As your pup matures, the treats will lessen and be given more so "on point" for the behavior you are asking for. Right now, you are looking to make baby steps and keep your pup focused on you and building a strong bond.

Repetition is important - but break it up a bit. I like Heidi's suggestion of taking a break if it gets boreing for your dog.

I always had good luck integrating short spirts of training at home in between other normal day to day activities and always remember to make it fun for you and your pup!

Melissa

[georgejr]

I love the lab comment!  Our class consisted of 2 golden retrievers, 2 black labs, a bulldog and an australian shepherd along with our ridgie.  Let's just say that while everyone else was practicing "sit, down, sit" our puppy was still doing sit!  She NEVER listened in the class but at home she was better.  The labs and everyone else was so eager to please while Ripley was not super easy.  We had read they're not easy dogs to train, stubborn not stupid.  Now at 6 months, we're firm but she definatly responds better to asking then telling.  My husband laughs (or other guests that try it) because in a stern voice he'll say a command and she ignores him.  I say "say it nicely" and BAM she does it.  It's pretty funny.  She does however need a good stern tone once in a while! 
By the end of the 8 weeks, we were done with puppy class.  We almost flipped a coin to see who had to go.  I agree with puppy class is for you to learn and at home is where you train.  Good luck!

who is training who?

[Loki]

Hi Steve, me again!!!
I see many people responded and gave you a lot of good advice. I was thinking about your dilemma about the trainer last night (yeah, I had nothing better to do at 4 am when I could not sleep) and decided to share my experience with Loki's trainers (note the plural) over the past 3 years. After you read this you will most likely conclude that I am "insane" and kind of stupid ... I already think that about myself 

Loki's first trainer used all positive reinforcement techniques for treating dog aggression.Thank goodness for that because no harm was done and while Loki did not progress he did not regress either. After a few months she went on a mat-leave. So no progress and Loki still reacted aggressively towards new dogs. First lesson learned from working with the first trainer: Following the text book examples without real life experiences is not very productive!!! This lesson was about CDN$1,000,00 over the 4 month period.

Status-quo was not acceptable to us so we we decided to call in the second trainer. We worked with her when we got our puppy mastiff-mix. We remembered she used positive reinforcement techniques with our puppy and she was well known and respected and she was known for being successful with dog-to-dog aggression. She suggested we board Loki for 4 weeks with her. We trusted her and we followed her advice. In those 4 weeks there was not a day I did not miss Loki and I could not stop thinking we made a mistake by giving him to her instead of working with her and Loki in our house. 4 weeks later Loki was back - with a prong collar, a perfect heel command and the advice to "keep him away from other dogs because our dog Darko should be more than enough for Loki to play with!!!!" So, the heel command lasted only as long as the prong collar was on Loki and guess what. I could not use the prong collar. I walked Loki on it for one day and the first time I had to correct him the way the trainer showed me and I heard him yelp it broke my heart. I took the collar off and threw it away. For those of you reading this, please do not take the comment about the prong collar the wrong way if you are using it on your dog. If correctly used this collar can be quited effective. I just could not use it because I tried the "tug" correction on my own skin and I did not like it. So we all follow our own believes and gut-feelings. 2nd lesson learned: Do not give your dog away and do not follow advice with which you are not comfortable. The price tag CDN 2,000. Loki was still lunging towards unknown dogs.

The third trainer (now we are almost 1 year into dealing with the dog aggression) is the same trainer that Carol mentioned; Loki and Trouble go to his class together this month. By now you know that Jon uses the positive reinforcement techniques but with an instructive reprimand (change in the tone of the voice). He worked with us for about a year and he managed to get Loki to accept meeting new dogs but Loki was not consistent in his progress. Huskies and German Shepherds remained the biggest challenge. We have also noticed that Loki responded to him much better than to us - even though we would go for the training walks together. When Jon was handling Loki on those walk Loki was "the perfect dog". When I was out with him - oh well, you can just imagine. So the problem was with me and my husband and all the wrong signals we were sending to Loki i.e. our body would tense and I would pull the leash etc.. Eventually we stopped waisting Jon's time and I started to read the books about dog psychology and training; I am still reading like mad. The third lesson learned: I had to learn how to work with my dog.
After about 10 months of just simply "managing" Loki and keeping him away from other dogs I was ready to try again.
The fourth trainer started to work with us in Dec. 2009. She developed a very structured and well thought out approach to Loki's issues. It was her idea to get Loki ready to start attending classes with other dogs. But before he could go into a class Loki had to learn how to manage his anxiety which was apparent but we all missed it!!!! So the root cause of Loki's fear was his anxiety about anything new, including dogs.
Now we are attending her classes and Jon's classes. These two trainers have different styles (not techniques) and their styles combined are finally producing very positive results. The key in producing these positive results is that while the trainers are guiding me and showing me how to train, I am the one working with Loki. Loki and I are learning together and that is also allowing us to trust each other.

I was the most comfortable following Jon's style but I also learned that the fourth trainer's style was actually giving me more structured approach which I needed (more than Loki :-).

So this is a very long story (sorry about that everyone) but hope it illustrates how important it is that we learn from the trainers and we work with our dogs. On top of that, in my experience it was absolutely critical that I was comfortable with what I was doing. One more thing that Jon thought me and it was very important for me and Loki: "do not be afraid to try different things until you find something that works for your dog but always be kind to your dog". So do not spend thousands of dollars like us - find a good trainer and work with Safi; it will pay off in many ways.
Betsa

[1st5]

We decided to do the training ourselves. Socialization is very important...but I don't like the idea of treat based training. When I want the dog to do something I don't want the dog expecting to be doing it for food, I want the dog to do it because I said so. So I socialize Jess with friends and family and we just started going to the dog park to socialize with other dogs and people. It works for us. I pretty much follow Milan's training, but without treats for reinforcement. Brodie was rehabilitated using that system and Jess is responding very well now. I just spent five minutes with her out on the sidewalk doing leash training for the walk and she just soaked it up.
As far as positive rewards...they get them. Lots of face and neck scratches and massage and attention! And when I'm cooking venison or wild pig they get a little love in the dinner bowl with their kibble.