Author Topic: puppy class frustration  (Read 928 times)

Offline lilacocelot

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puppy class frustration
« on: May 03, 2010, 12:33 AM »
I have been going to a puppy preschool class, my puppy Harley is almost 4 months old. Feeling frustrated, really questioning whether the total positive way of training works for us. Wondering if I need to seek out someone more familiar with the Ridgeback mindset?
I am interested in  hearing from other RR puppy owners that have taken puppy classes and what their experience was/is.
Thanks!

Offline Jenn09

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Re: puppy class frustration
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2010, 06:16 AM »
Hey!
Our girl is 6 months and we did a postive training/reward based puppy class.  We found she was the last dog to listen in the class (which was always a delight!) and that she needed a combo of reward based and tough love (for lack of a better word).  If I say "leave it" if she has a sock in her mouth, she runs and its a game, versus if I say "Eh!!!! No!!! LEAVE IT!!" Then she drops it.  We just kind of did a combo.  Not sure if that's much help.  However, if you want her to do something, where she's not in trouble, she definatly responds better to a calm voice and a treat!  Just take the good and bad out of the class and make it your own!
Jenn

Offline sarah yates

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Re: puppy class frustration
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2010, 07:31 AM »
i think puppy classes, especially obedience, with a ridgeback is very challenging. i've actually stopped and train my dogs at home (i'm not saying this is the right way to go about). if you're a first time ridgeback owner, stick with it because what these classes really do is train you. then you can apply your learned behaviors to situations outside of class.

ridgebacks are hard because they like to make a fool out of you in front of everyone else, and they're quite good at it, so our egos get a bit bruised. so don't let it get to you, be firm and consistent and it will pay off.

sarah
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Offline caro

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Re: puppy class frustration
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2010, 08:53 AM »
Sarah's last sentence puts it in a nutshell.  Think of puppy class as a means of teaching your puppy to play nice with other dogs and people.  I wouldn't worry too much if he doesn't sit right off.  Just persevere at home and one of these days he will surprise you and sit, at which time you shout and yell and make a huge deal about the fact that he has actually learned to listen to you.  It will last all of ten seconds and then  you have to start again.  Patience is the most important attribute for a puppy owner.  If he does something really wrong, like grabbing a steak off the counter and running off with it, then you are quite justified in grabbing him by the scruff of the neck and telling him in a very loud voice "No" and whatever else you want to add so that he knows you are unhappy with his behavior.  But smacking him is probably not the best idea though I believe sometimes it is necessary, particularly when what he is doing is actually a threat to his health and well being. 

I'll give you an example;  Years ago, my uncle (an extremely accomplished dog trainer) was riding with his Golden Retriever bitch when she ducked through a fence and started chasing sheep.  Now in Ireland where he lived, chasing sheep will get you shot by the local farmer.  My uncle caught his bitch and used his riding crop on her.  She never chased sheep again!  And she lived a good long life devoted to my uncle who never raised more than his voice to her.  The thing was, she had to learn an important lesson quickly or she would not have survived.  The law does not look kindly on dogs threatening a farmer's livelihood. 

Caroline

Offline CA in TO

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Re: puppy class frustration
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2010, 09:15 AM »
When I finish the current class with Trouble, I will have been through 6 classes with 2 dogs in less than 3 years. Our trainer is totally positive methods.
We suffered through a lot of your experience with Sara. Then I started really watching her in class. Her learning method was to watch the others a number of times before she would actually attempt the task. It was almost as if she wasn't going to do something unless she totally understood it first. Then she'd do it once or twice and then refuse again.

Neither of my dogs will tolerate boring and repetitive. It needs to remain fun.

Our trainer is clear with us that once you know that your pup understands what is wanted, you do not repeat yourself. You ask for what you want and if you do not get it you follow with a command. Give that a chance and then it's time for a "corrective reprimand" That's the tone of voice change that is implicit (I think) in Jenn's example. Our classes were also upbeat, with lots of changes of activity. That was vital.

At some point for both Sara and Trouble, all the various pieces just fell together. Jon still talks about Sara (class nickname was 'the wild child') and then follows with gushing compliments about how she turned out to be one of his star pupils. He also reminds me --- regularly when Trouble won't "perform" --- about how my frustration with Sara was totally unwarranted.

Don't know if any of that was helpful but it's my experience.
RRs aren't labs. They have a mind of their own. But that's why we love them.
Carol Ann Brown, Toronto
Proud mama of Pukka Sara & Trouble

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts"

Offline Safi

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Re: puppy class frustration
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2010, 09:47 AM »
Our Safi is 6 months old and we have gone through this problematic training as well :) I would like peoples opinion on one thing though .. I was told by a local RR owner that it is a bad idea to let anyone but the owners of an RR do the training during class .. i.e. no letting the instructor take over or use them for examples. Our current instructor has been doing that to us and I am starting to find it very irritating. Safi will get all wiggle butt for the instructor now and she is barely listening to me until after we are out of class. She is also not really responding to treats much anymore .. I can put her favorite treat right in her mouth, but if she is focused on something else she will just drop it on the ground and go.

I am really considering changing instructors and going to a non treat training instructor .. I agree .. I have had to do the tough love thing a few times to correct some of Safi's behaviour and she only needed it a couple of times to figure out that what she was doing was wrong .. Things like jumping on me when feeding.. my solution .. every time she jumped on me I would put down the empty bowl .. two days later and she lays down in her spot and waits for me to give her the ok to goto her food bowl :) I love how smart RR's are sometimes.
Steve - Ottawa ON Canada

Offline caro

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Re: puppy class frustration
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2010, 12:07 PM »
I would find it extremely irritating to have somebody else take my dog and train it.  The point of going to class is to make your dog respond to your command, not to somebody else's.  Either have a talk with your trainer and explain that while your dog is responding to him, he is not responding to you.  If he doesn't understand your problem, then find another trainer who does.

Caroline

Offline Loki

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Re: puppy class frustration
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2010, 12:41 PM »
Even though Loki was no longer a puppy when we rescued him I had to start from scratch and train him as I would train a puppy because he did not know anything. Key to successful training was a combination of what Carol described (must be fun), food reward and a patience (read 2 hours of work per day). Steve believe it or not you did follow the food based reward when you put the food down for not jumping - that is how positive reinforcement works - good behaviour gets rewarded and you simply did not put the food down when your dog jumped (you did not reward jumping). I did the same thing with Loki - if he moved from the down-stay I would make him wait for his dinner a bit longer and my older dog would get the food first. This did two things for him - thought him patience (which he did not have at all in the beginning) and his down-stay was perfect within a week. I still make him wait at the door when we are leaving the house - walking through that door is very exciting for him because he likes his walks so much. After 2 years he can now sits by the door automatically and waits for my other dog to go through, then me and they he goes. Yes, it really took two years for him to get hold of his self-control. If he bolted through the door before he was released, we would all go in the house and we would sit and wait for a few minutes and try again - thus my comment about the time and patience. I never used food in this situation - going through that door was a reward in itself.

Loki also learned from watching other dogs - this approach (having him in a class and watching other dogs not reach) is still key to his dog-to-dog aggression rehab. When he is in a class with other dogs he does not react and he does his exercises because he can see the other dogs are doing them too. When his does well I can see in his body language how proud he is of himself.

Key to Loki's appreciation for treats is that if he does not do something I know he knows how to do, I wait - sometimes a minute or longer. He eventually obeys the command (yes he remembers what I asked even a minute later - I guess this is why we say the RRs are stubborn). BUT when he waits that long - I say "good, nice try" and I do not reward. Then I ask him to do the same command again - and most of the time he responds right away. I reward that. This gives him contrast when it comes to the timing of his response.

Yelling and frustration do not work - he just shuts down. I have not raised my voice in 1.5 years now - it just does not work. Change of the tone however does, as Carol said, first "ask" then "tell" him to do it.
How do I make it fun - we go for walks every day. First we just walk for about 20 min at a very fast pace so he can get rid of some of the pant-up energy. Then I stop and ask him to do 2-3 sit-stays and down-stays. Then I tell him "all done" and we run really fast for a couple of minutes ( I cannot keep up with him for more than that :-)). Then we walk again for about 10 min and we repeat the exercises. So the whole "exercise set" is no longer than 2-3 min per set and we do it 4-5 time during our walk. If he shows interest in a stick on the ground while he is working, I use that as a reward and to play some tug for a minute or two. Our walks are about an hour - twice a day so that spreads the exercises nicely and it gives him time to have fun and work at the same time.

If there is a squirrel in sight and it is safe (we are far away from any road on our walks) - I ask him to sit and then I release him and he can go and bark up the tree where the squirrel is. This is by far the best reward for him and also the best fun I could imagine. You should see his automatic sits when he sees a squirrel :-) So you do not need food to be the only reward. Find something you puppy really likes and make it a reward for the good response to the asked behaviour and stick with a simple "nice try" for anything but the good response.

I HAD to work with Loki myself - delegating training to a trainer did not work at all - he responded to the trainer but not me; and the behaviors he learned did not last. The fact that I work with him allows us to build a bond and mutually respect and trust. It took almost 2 years for Loki to trust me (please do not forget he is a rescue). In the last 6 months I have noticed that he looks to me for direction and for instructions and to me that is the sign of trust. I will contrast that with the walks my husband has with him - they are not the same. Do not get me wrong, Loki will obey the command - but the body language is different and the speed and consistency of his respond is variable (his recall is 100% consistent with me - but he choses what he wants to do if my husband calls him). Even my older dog Darko (the mastiff) does not listen well to my husband. For example, if I tell Darko to do a "down" command and my husband gives him the "break" (release) command Darko does not move until I say "break". Quite funny - but not to my husband :-) I told you this just to illustrate that it is very important that you work and train you puppy - not someone else.

I hope our experiences help a bit. Betsa
Betsa

Offline Safi

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Re: puppy class frustration
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2010, 12:56 PM »
Thanks for the great response Betsa! I do agree that the feeding bowl was food reward based :) So glad I am seeing the same behaviours and training problems everyone else is and I have already booked an appointment to a higher end dog trainer to see if their philosophy is any better.
Steve - Ottawa ON Canada

Offline melissap

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Re: puppy class frustration
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2010, 02:43 PM »
Please sign your posts new peeps - it helps a great deal when we are able to respond to you by name rather than go back through all your posts to look up your intro's.

puppy classes are a great way to socialize your pup, but you need to work with your pups at home as well.

"positive methods" are best, but that is not to imply that you should not be strong leaders and setting clear boundaries when your pup acts up or exhibits behaviors you do not want to have an 80-100 lb dog exhibiting.

Giving a pup a correction that is firm but fair is also important. You have to be consistant and give a correction every time they choose to behave that way - and a few firm but fair corrections should be enough.

I would ask your breeders to suggest trainers that you may want to try. Above all, find one who you respect and if you do not feel comfortable with the trainer taking your dog - tell them No thanks, you would prefer to do it yourself & they use another pup in class for the demonstration.

Melissa
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Offline georgejr

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Re: puppy class frustration
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2010, 04:21 PM »
  We found she was the last dog to listen in the class
Jenn

i guess if we wanted labs we would have bought them, right? :P

-george
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Offline melissap

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Re: puppy class frustration
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2010, 05:43 PM »
I have known a few labs who were the WORST in class, so I am not sure that it is quite that simple.
Each pup has it's own personality and each trainer (owner) has a different level of experience.

I think finding a trainer who works on good principles who takes the time to work with you and your dog is very important.
They should take the time to speak with you about what you are having trouble with and give you tools to address it.

There are always methods that work for some, (dogs and owners) that do not work for others. Having one that is reccommended can be a great place to start - but if you do not care for this one, keep looking for someone who you respect and works well for you and your dog! For the 1st puppy classes, it is more about socializing the pup - but when you move up to the next level of training class, it is even more important to find someone who really fits the bill. (for you and your dog)

That said, you have to listen to your trainer and take the advice that is given  ;) and follow through!

Melissa
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Offline Safi

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Re: puppy class frustration
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2010, 06:42 PM »
re: you have to listen to your trainer and take the advice that is given and follow through!

Even when she tells me I should call my RR with a high pitched voice using her name quickly a 1/2 dozen times so that she is excited enough to come to me? :P
I think I was just about ready to snap this past weekend, but fortunately I have a good muzzle. I sort of wonder how tuned in Safi is to my mood during those periods.

Steve
Steve - Ottawa ON Canada

Offline melissap

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Re: puppy class frustration
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2010, 07:36 PM »
There is nothing unusual about that Steve. Breeders call the pups that way "puppy puppy puppy" and the whole litter usually comes running.

Does it get your pups attention?

Remember her age - she needs to know that coming to you is a "good thing"
it is not until they are more mature that they obey with 1 verbal command given sternly- it is a part of conditioning at this age. Your puppy's attention span (much like a child) is rather short right now.

If you do not "like" the trainer - find another one, but if you are paying someone for thier time and advice who has experience and good success, follow through on what they ask - or find another trainer who you respect enough to take advice from  8)
as you and your pup progress.

Melissa
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Offline Jenn09

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Re: puppy class frustration
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2010, 08:39 PM »
I love the lab comment!  Our class consisted of 2 golden retrievers, 2 black labs, a bulldog and an australian shepherd along with our ridgie.  Let's just say that while everyone else was practicing "sit, down, sit" our puppy was still doing sit!  She NEVER listened in the class but at home she was better.  The labs and everyone else was so eager to please while Ripley was not super easy.  We had read they're not easy dogs to train, stubborn not stupid.  Now at 6 months, we're firm but she definatly responds better to asking then telling.  My husband laughs (or other guests that try it) because in a stern voice he'll say a command and she ignores him.  I say "say it nicely" and BAM she does it.  It's pretty funny.  She does however need a good stern tone once in a while! 
By the end of the 8 weeks, we were done with puppy class.  We almost flipped a coin to see who had to go.  I agree with puppy class is for you to learn and at home is where you train.  Good luck!