Fighting between Ridgeback and Border Collie puppy

[dippa]

Hi all,

We have a 16 week old Ridgeback Max and a 13 week old Border Collie.

They are both great dogs but we are getting a little concerned with their fighting.

Generally they are just two puppies playing with toys and chasing each around the yard which we are not concerned about. We are however finding once every day or two they really get aggressive with each other and the playing turns into fighting.

From what I've seen its usually over food or location. We are now seperating them when we feed them which has helped, the location trigger is usually the kitchen and the instigator is usually the BC which I wonder if its due to our ridgey barging himself past the BC for attention and wanting everything that the BC has and grabbing it off him, is this the BC saying this is my space!

I wasnt initially not too concerned as I thought it was just a puppy thing but I noticed this morning after seperating them again a very small bit of blood on the BC's fur however I couldnt find any cuts/punctures on either dog.

Each time this happens we seperate them and after they cool down they are fine and play/lick/sleep with each other like little angels.

Has anyone else had similar issues? and can anyone provide some advice to help us before it gets worse or it develops the dogs aggressiveness which might spill over in other areas.


EDIT: All the fighting I have noticed seams to be around meal time, I going to try keeing them seperated longer by rotating one dog inside one outside after feeding.

[Safi]

No real experience with your situation, but is is possible that your RR is teething? I did notice our RR tended to leave spots of blood while playing with other dogs when she was teething.

Steve

[CA in TO]

Generally they are just two puppies playing with toys and chasing each around the yard which we are not concerned about. We are however finding once every day or two they really get aggressive with each other and the playing turns into fighting.

Are they angrily fighting? Or are they playing out of control and the way RRs often do? It CAN look like someone is going to die when RRs play rough. Can they be made to stop or come to you when it is happening? Or try pulling them apart and waiting 30 seconds. If they go back to playing when you let go, then they just need to learn not to frighten you. If on is being picked on, it will typically leave after having had it stopped by you. If they ARE truly fighting, they'll likely still try to fight as you separate them.
You said earlier that the RR is going to puppy school. Have you asked the trainer for ideas. He/she would know your dog's personality (having met it) and might have some good suggestions.

From what I've seen its usually over food or location. We are now seperating them when we feed them which has helped, the location trigger is usually the kitchen and the instigator is usually the BC which I wonder if its due to our ridgey barging himself past the BC for attention and wanting everything that the BC has and grabbing it off him, is this the BC saying this is my space!

If the RR is being rude and "barging" past the BC and taking things from him, then I would be tempted to call the RR the instigator. If they cannot yet control themselves in the kitchen, then I would not allow them in the kitchen. If it's just when you are preparing dinner, then I would restrict them then. Are they crate trained? It might be a good time to give them a time out. It would also be a good time to start teaching long downs but that would require a second person to assist or you would likely never get dinner made.

I wasnt initially too concerned as I thought it was just a puppy thing but I noticed this morning after seperating them again a very small bit of blood on the BC's fur however I couldnt find any cuts/punctures on either dog.

I think that if you have really checked them for injuries, that Steve's idea about teething has a lot of merit. I remember toys covered in blood from being chewed on.

[dippa]

Hi Safi I hadnt thought of teething, I had a look just then but couldnt see anything but it has been quite a few hours since the last blue.

Hi CA, yep they definitely are angrily fighting. It is almost impossible to break them up once they start, and they will continue once one is pulled away, it is not their normal play fighting.

Yep I mentioned it to the trainer last week and she said it is a problem and must be dealt with straight away by feeding them seperately, not giving them treats together etc.. to avoid them being in the situation where they will start up. Like I said this has been done but the fighting still occur around meal time or soon after (their meal time not ours), which makes me wonder whether they need more time apart one they have been feed and the left over food has been put away.

CA I tend to agree with you that the RR is antagonising the BC by acting like a single child by wanting everything the BC has which is something else we are working on, the BC is the one however "swings the first punch"! Both are traits we are working on getting rid of. This is the reason for the post, I'm interested if others have had similar experiences with young puppies and what has been done.

Apart from this they are great together and play and socialise with each other as you'd expect, ie. when playing and one yelps the other eases up, which they are doing beside me right now

At the moment there is no carry over from the occasional fight or lingering animosity which gives me hope it can still be delt with.

[ShellyK]

I've been thinking about this one...it's definitely a tough situation. Also very stressful for you and your family, I'm sure.

I'm not sure what the answer is...but I have a couple thoughts.

**This isn't just an issue between the two puppies...it's an issue between the BC, the ridgeback, and you. I don't agree with everything Cesar Millan (sp?) does, but some of it makes sense. If the two dogs are fighting to figure out their place in your house, maybe you haven't done a sufficient job showing them what their place is, i.e. being the pack leader?
**Do either of the puppies have exposure to well-socialized adult dogs that might show them the 'dog ettiquette' ropes?
**I'd think this was a teenage dominance type issue, but both dogs are so young...that doesn't seem right.
**Have you tried sitting between them while they eat? The BC sounds like it's guarding it's food...maybe if you were there, blocking the ridgeback, the BC might not feel the need to guard?

I'm not a dog trainer and I don't know the whole situation, but maybe these ideas might help you come up with a solution?

Good luck,

~Shelly K.

[caro]

Definitely something you need to stop right away before it escalates.  I would start by putting each dog in his crate before you even bring out the dog food.  Then feed them in their crates and leave them there when they have finished.  I would banish both dogs from the kitchen if you can.  Kitchen is off limits until they can behave.  Keep treats to a minimum and only when they have earned one. 

The puppy teeth often fall out and are swallowed so you might not necessarily see them. 

You definitely need to assert yourself and your position as the bearer of all good things in this world.  Try using some body blocks when you sense things may be escalating and figure out who is the instigator and really really block them.  I had two puppies for a while that were vying for top dog position and I knew which one was the challenger so used to follow him around blocking him as he would try to get to the other dog.  He would finally give up and then he got praised.   I don't think we would ever have totally solved the situation, but he didn't stay and went to his new home where he continued to try to dominate.  Some dogs are just like that--they need to be the dominant one.  I don't know much about BCs, but they too can be dominant I believe.  They need to have a job to do in order for them to channel that trait correctly.

Caroline

[1st5]

You have to take the pack leader position here. If I remember your previous posts, the BC is your room mate's pup? Both of you need to be on the same page then.

When I feed I follow a set ritual. Nobody gets fed unless they follow the ritual. I also supervised the feeding for a while until they both followed the rules on their own.

For example: Both dogs come to the feeding area, in my case it is the pantry next to the kitchen. They have to then lie down and calm down before I fill the bowls. I have had to push the puppy out of the way repeatedly until she finally realized that she had to lie down and be calm before she got her food. So, then I fill the bowls, and hold them in my hands and stand over the dogs while they are down and calm. Then I put the older dog's bowl down first, so he thinks he is given priority due to his place in the pack, then I put the pup's bowl down. I then tell them both "OK" and release them to eat. With the pup I still have to occasionally put my hand in front of her to remind her to stay down and calm before I say OK. But that is just reinforcement and now she even goes down and calm when I fill the water bowl for her! And remember, calm assertiveness is what works. Show frustration or confusion and they won't buy in to what you are selling. For awhile I had to supervise to keep Brodie from barging her off her food, and then to keep her from getting in under Brodie to get at his food, but again, showing them who's in charge of the food (me and the wife), teaches them to respect each other's space. 

As far as the fighting goes you have to again show them who the boss is. Are they both males? If so they may be trying to set the pecking order. Again, calm assertiveness wins. Don't freak out on them as they will feed on that energy and keep going. Yes, you will have to more asssertive than calm, but not freaking out. Separate them, put them down and make them be calm. If one is the aggresssor, concentrate on that dog. Not being there and seeing what is going on it is hard to give further advice.  My puppy is now socializing with many other breeds of many different ages and seems to know her place well.

[Safi]

I totally agree with the food ritual and hopefully it can be done with two dogs It took me two days to get Safi conditioned to lay down and wait for me to allow her to eat from the filled bowl on the floor. Basically what I would do is if she got up, came to me, or jumped on me before I put the bowl on the floor, then she would be trying to eat out of an empty bowl even if I had to put the contents back in the bag first. She seemed to catch on pretty fast that she would get an empty bowl if she did not lay down and wait for a full one and the release to eat from it I don't even have to tell her to lay down anymore .. she just assumes the down position and waits patiently for the command to go eat .. even with a full food bowl on the floor and me leaving the room to fill the water dish. Not bad for a 6 month old.

Steve

PS She has even let the cat eat from her bowl and she waited for the cat to leave before eating I had to play a very dominant role with Safi at first to get her to respect the cats space which involved flipping her on her side every time she got out of control with the cat .. I am pretty sure I flipped her no more than 4 times during the entire learning process.

[Loki]

Hi there,
If both of your dogs know the down-stay command use it before the feeding time. So before you start getting their food ready ask them to lie down and stay. I would verbally reward them for the continues stay (by saying good stay) until they figure out that the "real" reward is their dinner. The dog which breaks the stay first gets its meal last and it has to wait a bit longer. You will see how quickly they will both have a perfect down-stay. So you have just accomplished three things with the down-stay - 1) they are mastering the down-stay command which you will have to use in different situations, 2) they are learning to be patient for the food they want and 3) they are not fighting (hard to fight if you are a few feet apart and have to obey a down-stay).

I have two dogs and this approach works really well. When we got Loki he was barging in front of Darko all the time. It took him only a couple of days to figure out that trying to get ahead of Darko was just delaying his food! I would simply stand and wait with the food in my hands (while Darko was eating a few feet away from Loki) and my husband was standing in between Loki and Darko. So Loki had no choice but to focus on me and the food in my hands. First he offered to sit voluntarily (and he would get his dinner for that). In a few days I asked him to lie down and stay. I would feed him first so that he would not break his stay; and I have also slowly increased the duration of the stay every day bit by bit.
These days they both get their meal at the same time. We always put their food down about 10 feet apart. Which ever dog finished his meal first usually waits for the other one to finish and then they switch places and lick each others plate :-) No fights.

Regarding the play itself - I allow them to rough house a bit but I alway listen for the possible escalation. They know the "time-out" and if I think the play will escalate I give them a time-out. Time-outs are not bad to teach in any case - I also use them when they are playing with our neighbor's dog.

Cheers,
Betsa

[melissap]

This sounds like a pack order competition. With both pups being young, they are working to determine who is the head of the pack. While you are/need to be a strong leader - you need to establish the order.

Usually, when you bring a puppy home, you leave the prior dog in thier place as head - and give that dog food, treats etc 1st. The pup comes 2nd.

With 2 puppies -  you need to establish that order for them and stick with it.

Good luck!
Melissa 

[georgejr]

This sounds like a pack order competition. With both pups being young, they are working to determine who is the head of the pack. While you are/need to be a strong leader - you need to establish the order.

Usually, when you bring a puppy home, you leave the prior dog in thier place as head - and give that dog food, treats etc 1st. The pup comes 2nd.

With 2 puppies -  you need to establish that order for them and stick with it.

Good luck!
Melissa 

melissa, i disagree.

in my home no dog is head of anything. i rule the world.

while i would not allow the dogs to fight i think letting the pecking order to naturally become established is best.

-george

[melissap]

I am not sure what you are "disagreeing" with George, my point was the owner/human needed to BE the pack leader, but that said - with 2 puppies of the same age is really quite different than having added a 2nd puppy to a house where the older dog remains 1st dog and new pup becomes 2nd dog in the 4 legged pack.

With 2 puppies in the house at the same time - establishing the pack order is more complicated as one is not established and trained, making it harder to form strong bonds with the owner and establishing that leadership becomes more difficult with out LOTS of individual work with each puppy. Frequently when 2 puppies are brough home at the same time, they bond with one another and look less to the leader/human because they bond with one another.

Hopefully, that clarify's my point.
Melissa

[rrbylexus]

Melissa is so right.  It's never a good idea to get 2 puppies at the same time.  They bond to each other and not the humans.  This presents so many training issues that are hard to over come, even with experienced owners. 

The best thing the owner of this RR puppy and the BC puppy can do is get to a very reputable training class and train, train, train.  One on one time with each puppy is also important.  And I'm also a firm believer of letting the dogs/pups work out disaggreements between themselves.  When the owner constantly steps in to stop the "scuffles" nothing is resolved and the scuffle will resume over and over again, usually getting worse and worse.

This is a tough situation and without a reputable, experienced trainer, lots of issues could be around the corner.

Pam

[Savane]

I had a simular issue happening with my 2 pups, a RR and Border Collie both being 5 months. I also have a 10 year old Golden Retriever.  We had some issues at the start with establishing the pecking order, and it was quickly established that neither eat before Benson my GD.  He's the boss and they now know this. I don't know which  way it will swing though once they both reach adolesence, he B will be getting desexed, the RR is shown so remains entire and the GD desexed.

I don't think though that mine play/fight to the extent your do, the BC can get really snappy at times when the RR rolls him which happens frequently, but at this stage the RR is way to laid back to care much about BC's tanties.

[Miss Damology]

I also think it is a matter that concerns the pups and you. Just think like a pack leader and act as soon as you see a fight coming on. My RR went at my Lab girl over a bone and without even thinking about it, I went in between and launched a decent swing at my RR. I was rather surprised over my reaction myself, but in that split second I was just worried that he might hurt my lab girl..     

I was maybe a bit over the top, but it worked. Make sure you are the pack leader, especially with the RR. I would also do what others already have suggested. Stand between them when you feed them and if you keep having left overs (I am amazed, leftovers with a RR?), maybe just feed them less, so they both empty their bowl while you stand there and then order them on their beds and keep them calm.

Depending on how you go with the two of them in general, make sure you separate them at times, sure you want them to be best mates, but I think its important that each dog can still be on their own.

Good luck.

[melissap]

Great tips! Please remember to sign your posts peeps 
Melissa

[dippa]

Well its been a few months since I posted about the aggression issues we were having between our Border Collie and Ridgeback so I thought I provide an update for those who were curious or in a similar position.

BTW it's a positive update

Max the Ridgy is now 6 months 2 weeks old and and Hugo the Border Collie 5 months and 3 weeks.  There has been no escalation in the violence infact its dropping off quickly and we now have two pups getting along very well all most all the time now!

So after my last update we continued walking, feeding them separately and giving each separate time with us. Exercise and mental stimulation at home and away from home also has been very important and helpfull, especially because we live in Sydney with a smallish backyard. Doing these things daily was preventing the issue from escalating, we also kept a close eye on them and have learnt to spot the body language leading up to any aggression so we be proactively address the troublemaker and separate them if using a loud voice to stop doesn't stop them before it escalates!

At its worst it was happening at least once every day or two, sometimes more and it was getting a little worrying to say the least! Saying this there had been no major wounds inflicted on each other apart from a few light scrapes, I did notice some blood a few times but couldn't find the associated cut so attributed it to teething, but nothing major.

Anyway we noticed the biggest change a month ago, we put them both in the kennels for 6 nights while we had some work done in the back yard. The two trouble makers ended up being kept separated due to this fighting (with each other, not others) as the kennels not able to spend the time we do keeping an eye on them. Then the next day after we picked them up we had them both de-sexed.

I'm not sure which helped more, the break in their routine at a new place (the kennels are great btw, and they get alot of out door exercise and they match like dogs up to play together) or the de-sexing. I tend to think its been a combination of both as the de-sexing from my understanding will not make any immediate change if any at all depending on the dog.

So now we rarely see Hugo start up at Max anymore, I'd say once a week at most, starting to lean more towards once a fortnight!

We are keeping up with keeping them separated during different periods of the day but we are now taking them together to the dog park to get a good run. Its a big relief as we would have been gutted if we'd had to pick one to re-home!

[caro]

Good news!  I hope things continue to improve for you.
Caroline

[melissap]

Dippa,
I am glad to hear that you have made the effort to work with them seperately to keep ensure your place as pack leader and give them each some individual attention and training to ensure they both feel confident, bonded and are well socialized 

Great news on the decline of excessively rough play between them.

Do keep this up! Training should be something that takes presidence until the dog is at least 2 years old and ideally would continue is small increments through their life time - I am sure they enjoy working with you.

Also, as you do not post often - PLEASE sign your posts so we can address you by your name 
Thanks,
Melissa

[George Boateng]

Well its been a few months since I posted about the aggression issues we were having between our Border Collie and Ridgeback so I thought I provide an update for those who were curious or in a similar position.

BTW it's a positive update

Max the Ridgy is now 6 months 2 weeks old and and Hugo the Border Collie 5 months and 3 weeks.  There has been no escalation in the violence infact its dropping off quickly and we now have two pups getting along very well all most all the time now!

So after my last update we continued walking, feeding them separately and giving each separate time with us. Exercise and mental stimulation at home and away from home also has been very important and helpfull, especially because we live in Sydney with a smallish backyard. Doing these things daily was preventing the issue from escalating, we also kept a close eye on them and have learnt to spot the body language leading up to any aggression so we be proactively address the troublemaker and separate them if using a loud voice to stop doesn't stop them before it escalates!

At its worst it was happening at least once every day or two, sometimes more and it was getting a little worrying to say the least! Saying this there had been no major wounds inflicted on each other apart from a few light scrapes, I did notice some blood a few times but couldn't find the associated cut so attributed it to teething, but nothing major.

Anyway we noticed the biggest change a month ago, we put them both in the kennels for 6 nights while we had some work done in the back yard. The two trouble makers ended up being kept separated due to this fighting (with each other, not others) as the kennels not able to spend the time we do keeping an eye on them. Then the next day after we picked them up we had them both de-sexed.

I'm not sure which helped more, the break in their routine at a new place (the kennels are great btw, and they get alot of out door exercise and they match like dogs up to play together) or the de-sexing. I tend to think its been a combination of both as the de-sexing from my understanding will not make any immediate change if any at all depending on the dog.

So now we rarely see Hugo start up at Max anymore, I'd say once a week at most, starting to lean more towards once a fortnight!

We are keeping up with keeping them separated during different periods of the day but we are now taking them together to the dog park to get a good run. Its a big relief as we would have been gutted if we'd had to pick one to re-home!

Good news and we've experienced something similar ourselves. Our BC is 18 months and George is now 11 months ... like you their play fighting would escalate into aggressive play then into a proper dust up a few times a day. Both dogs are now fed separately and even though George is the quicker eater and has the greater amount of food, he still finishes before the BC but knows he can't touch the BC's food.

They do have the odd scrap now and again ... usually over a bone or if one catches the other in a sensitive place such as round the mouth. They often play rough when out on walks but a quick bark from one of us keeps them in their places ... they run to us tails wagging and guilty looks and will then assume play in a less spirited nature.