Puppy born without the ridge?

[leolionhunter]

My Mom has a question about this (after our Leo is no longer here), and the forum won't let me post it in the Health/Genetics topic.

A puppy born without the ridge.....is it a genetic problem?  And does anything else go along with that?

A puppy born with a partial ridge....Will it develop a full ridge, or will it dissipate?  Chances of either?

The breeder we are dealing with is offering us one of 2 females, but one has no ridge, and the other has a partial ridge.

She is not breeding any more until next year and this could be our chance to get another puppy; Although it would be a female and a ridge issue.

And is the issue with the ridge solely our decision in whether we want a ridgeback or not without a ridge, or a partial ridge?  Are there any other issues that go with the "ridge-less ridgeback"?? 


Thanks!!

[caro]

 A puppy born without a ridge is as much a Ridgeback as its siblings.  It will be as healthy as any other puppy in its litter.  Oftentimes, the ridgeless ridgeback (or slickback as many call them) has the best conformation, but because it doesn't contain the signature ridge it is disqualified from the conformation ring and from certain events.  However, it may do obedience, rally, agility (not sure about agility, perhaps somebody else can confirm this)  or whatever you wish.  It should not however be bred and therefore, it will most probably come with a spay/neuter clause in the contract.

As for the genetics of the ridge, nobody really knows how the ridge is passed along.  For instance, a breeder can go for years without having a ridgeless puppy and then suddenly unexpectedly one will appear.   

It was thought for a while that ridgeless Ridgebacks did not get dermoid sinus, but that is actually a fallacy and  examples have subsequently been cited where a DS has appeared on a dog without a ridge.

If you are interested in a good looking pet to have fun with the ridgeless will give you all the characteristics of the breed.

I am not sure what you mean by a partial ridge.  If you mean a short ridge or a ridge with only one crown, then your puppy would not actually be disqualified since the only disqualification is the lack of a ridge.  However, it would not make sense for you to try to show the puppy in conformation as it would probably be excused for "lack of type" but you could participate in all the other activities.  It will most probably also come with a spay/neuter clause in the contract.

Puppies are born with/or without what they will have their entire life.  In other words, if a puppy is born with offset crowns, the crowns will be offset for its entire life.  Likewise, if it is born with a short ridge, I am afraid much as many of us would like it to happen, the ridge doesn't grow as the puppy grows.

Hope this helps.

Caroline

[leolionhunter]

That helps a lot.  I've been searching the Web for the last hour or so researching the "ridgelessness."

We will not be showing the puppy at all.

Thanks!

[Eli]

As for the genetics of the ridge, nobody really knows how the ridge is passed along.  For instance, a breeder can go for years without having a ridgeless puppy and then suddenly unexpectedly one will appear.   

Caro, this isn't true. The ridge is a simple Mendelian dominant gene. Only one copy of the ridge gene is required to have the ridge. Even the locus (location) of the gene is known as well as the gene and its function.

[heiditr]

If you are a new owner of ridgebacks and not extremely interested in genetics, Caro's answer is OK.

The occurrence of ridgeless puppies can come as a big surprise, even if parents and other ancestors have never produced ridgeless offspring. And from what I can read (and understand) from the research by Nicolette S Hilbertz http://diss-epsilon.slu.se:8080/archive/00001669/01/Salmon_Hillbertz.pdf on how the ridge ( dorsal hair ridge) are inherited, I can understand the surprise. The ridge is after all caused by dominant genes, and to get the ridge all you need is one, not all of them.
The quote is from Hilbertz doctoral thesis from 2007.

It was shown that the dorsal hair ridge in ridgeback dogs is caused by a 133 kb duplication of three fibroblast growth factor genes
FGF3, FGF4 and FGF19 and the ORAOV1 gene.

Since then she has made other discoveries, about ridges, ridgeless,semi-ridgeless and Dermoid Sinus. The conclusion of that work is not done yet, or at least not to my knowledge.
One of the things that need to be worked on is for the ridgeback clubs all over the world to cooperate and get their breeders to report all of their ridgeless and DS puppies. Thankfully, as the internet now can provide information on just about anything, one can visit sites and forums (such as this one) and learn new things.

Maybe I have misunderstood Hilbertz findings and the genes involved, if I have, please correct me.

Heidi

[caro]

Eli, I am not a geneticist nor have I ever pretended to be.  You are probably absolutely correct in theory, but if we know how the ridge is inherited why is it every litter that is born is a big surprise.  We don't test to see whether our bitches/dogs carry the dominant gene or not.  Perhaps we should be doing this just as we should be testing to see if our dogs are DM carriers or not, but people are still not doing that and breeding "blind".  We breed hoping that all the pups will be ridged, but we really don't know because nobody has tested.  Therefore each litter is a surprise.  E.g., I had never had a ridgeless puppy until my very last litter and then out of the blue I had two.  Yes, I subsequently found out that the sire had produced ridgeless before, but my bitch came from  a bitch that had never produced ridgeless and I can go back several generations from that and there were no ridgeless.
Incidentally, I have heard that Nicolette is now leaning toward the theory that there is yet another type of ridge, the one that is evident at birth but is not really a ridge, just a trace of a ridge, evident by the colloration of the hair.   I think she calls it a semi-ridge, but am not sure about that.  The one I had I called a shadow ridge.
Caroline

[rrbylexus]

Ridgeless puppies are just fine.  They have no more health problems than their ridged littermates.  Our Standard disqualifies ridgeless dogs from competing in Conformation and Lure Coursing. (In the United States that is.)

If you aren't interested in coursing or conformation competitions a ridgless pup will make an excellent pet.  Just be sure you alter them around age 1 so they can't be bred.

Pam

[Eli]

but if we know how the ridge is inherited why is it every litter that is born is a big surprise

It shouldn't be a surprise. If someone does not understand basic genetics, and Mendelian genetics is as basic as it gets, then they shouldn't be breeding.

[melissap]

I beleive the point Eli, is that this thread was started by a member who is looking for a more basic understanding about what implications there may be in aquiring a R-less companion; not to start a more indepth conversation about genetics.

As you know, we have threads for that where you have discussed your knowledge base before.

Let's try to keep the resposes on topic to the original post and poster.
Melissa

[Eli]

Incorrect information was provided. I corrected it. I didn't open up to topic of genetics or the understanding. I didn't explore it further because it has been explained and discussed.

In terms of not having a ridge, ridgeless dogs are the normal state. Ridges are a mutation and having a ridge may have health consequences. Ridgeless dogs are every-bit still ridgebacks. A puppy with a partial ridge will continue to have a partial ridge throughout its life.

[CA in TO]

If you are hoping to participate in conformation or lure coursing, having a ridge is vital. No ridge = no participation.

If you want your dog for any other reason, then ridgeless ridgebacks are 100% RR.

I, more than anyone, can assure you of that.  I own 2 1/2 year old Sara.
Sara has hunting titles, herding certificate, is the BOB for straight racing in Canada. She has her CGC, ATTS. And is the social convenor at every RR club picnic we attend.

We just left the RR Rodeo, and like every year, we had people realizing on the final day that she was ridgeless. They didn't notice for the first 4 days! She's totally ridgeback.

[leolionhunter]

Thank you for the input on ridgeless.  We have considered it and we are getting a female ridgeless this coming sunday.

[joecop]

Good for you   For your next one you can get a ridged, because you will find out 1  is not enough.

[prospective owner]

I was considering a ridgeless for a while but after i learned that they are ineligible for lure coursing I was kinda steered away because I really would like to do that.
I dont know why they are ineligible though. it seems to me that any dog that can keep up should be allowed to

[rrbylexus]

Ridgeless lure coursing.... Why They Can't Course.  It has to do with the Breed Standard and the way the awards at the lure coursing are labled.  The Breed Standard disqualifies ridgeless, Lure Coursing awards are handed out as Best of Breed.  A dog that is disqualified by The Breed Standard can not compete for Best of Breed.  It seems dumb but it's the way it is.  Works the same way with Whippets, their Breed Standard has height qualifications, any dog that doesn't meet the Standard height is disqualified, so they can't compete either. 

Pam

[Skeet]

Ridgeless lure coursing.... Why They Can't Course.  It has to do with the Breed Standard and the way the awards at the lure coursing are labled.  The Breed Standard disqualifies ridgeless, Lure Coursing awards are handed out as Best of Breed.  A dog that is disqualified by The Breed Standard can not compete for Best of Breed.  It seems dumb but it's the way it is.  Works the same way with Whippets, their Breed Standard has height qualifications, any dog that doesn't meet the Standard height is disqualified, so they can't compete either. 

Pam

I agree Pam - I think it's dumb too that ridgeless can't compete in lure coursing. Kinda reminds me of the old Dr Seuss story about the "star-bellied" sneetches versus the "plain-bellied" sneetches. We humans can sure come up with some silly, superficial rules for life. 

Regards,
Sandy B.

[prospective owner]

thanks pam, that does make sense since it is a breed standard thing. I guess i was just thinking about it as a fun activity (all dogs can participate but only breeds participate against each other out of fairness/ like ability. but since it is really a judgment on the breed standard it does all make sense.

[rrbylexus]

Don't give up coursing your ridgeless.  If you have coursing clubs in your area they more than likely will allow your ridgeless dog to course at "fun runs" - runs held from time to time to allow ridged dogs the opportunity to practice.  Since there are no awards handed out your ridgeless would get to have fun running, you would get to enjoy the beauty of watching your dog course and you'll get to hang out with folks that have similar interests....RRs. :-)

Back when I lived in the Dallas area, our club held fun runs about 3 or 4 times a year.  We would let any dog of any breed try coursing at these events.  Very funny watching a Yorkie try to course a bag that's larger than the dog itself! :-)

Pam