Eeeek! Which one?

[Mika]

So I'm about to take the massive step of getting another RR! (Hello, my name is Caro, and I am an addict) 

So I went to look at the litter this morning and I don't know which puppy to choose! I'm basically torn between two males... The one I think I want, and the one I think I should take The parents are both very well bred with champions on both sides. And although neither the actual parents were shown, the mating was orchestrated by a very well known South African breeder. And the puppies are not cheap! Anyway, both puppies I am interested in are being sold as show quality (there are also pet quality puppies, but I wasn't drawn to any of them). The one boy is a black faced boy who is absolutely gorgeous! He is going to be a big boy too. The breeder tells me he is one of the most relaxed puppies in the litter, always just chilling and sleeping. Now this is the puppy I think I should take as I just moved to a farm and a relaxed chilled dog would be fantastic. The puppy slept most of the visit I was there, but did enthusiastically come greet me once and then promptly when back to the bed and slept the rest of the visit. I kinda like this personality. But I wonder if he is not going to be aloof with me too? I also like this puppy as I am toying with the idea of showing (for fun though, nothing serious). So here is puppy number 1...







Now puppy number 2 is a livernosed boy. The two of us just hit it off. He came and played with me and just wanted to make friends. The whole visit I was there (and I spent a fair amount of time there), he was close by. I really like this puppy! The breeder tells me he has the most expressive face of them all and is a bit of a clown. My big concern always is to make sure I have a nice calm dog, so I pinned him on his back to see if he would squirm and he very calmly lay there and looked at me with his baby eyes. So a very nice dog! But he has a lot of white on his stomach. I know white hairs on the stomach is "undesirable" according to the KUSA breed standard (I'm in SA), so can I show this puppy? He has a very nice ridge though and is a great looking puppy. The pics in fact don't do him justice.







And if I can't show him, can I still breed him? (Providing he passes his hip and elbow x rays and he turns out to be a nice specimen...)

Pup no.1 also has a few white spots on the belly... Does that preclude him from showing too? And then both puppies have a peculiar whorl on their heads?! Like a mini ridge. Is this a fault? Does it preclude them from showing?



The well known SA breeder who arranged the mating has come to view the pups at 1 week old and a few other occasions too. It is she who sorted the pups into pet quality and show quality. I'm just wondering about the livernosed boy with the white on the belly and the whorls on bot heads!

Please help!

Caro

[melissap]

Cute Pups.
Interesting that they are both show quality & you went looking for a pet - The excessive white may make it a little more challenging to compete in the ring, but not a deal breaker when evaulating them as show potential.

The extra crowns on the top of their head (in the US) would surely make it tough to rationalize showing them.

Should you breed them with out completing the CH - IMO - NO, especially if you are new to the dog world.

It sounds to me like you are most interested in a companion. Showing is a big committment and one you should be prepared for before making a decision as to wether you are really looking to spend that kind of time and money on as a hobby.

Likely, you have identified some good qualities that suit your needs in the laid back boy with the black mask.

He will surely bond to you once he is home. The liver will also be a nice companion, but may be more outgoing. When you see them a 2nd time, you will know them better. Could be the black nosed boy was just tired for your visit.


What did the breeder say about the crowns on the top of the heads with regards to show potential?

Melissa

[sarah yates]

well i know a well known SA breeder who says white is necessary for the breed. it just shouldn't be excessive. the only note i would make is that it looks odd on a livernose, to me it looks fine on a black-nosed dog

the crown whorls i would be worried about if i were going to show. also, i'd want to know the results of the temperment testing at 7-8 weeks before making a final decision.

thanks, sarah

[caro]

Don't worry about the white on the belly that mostly disappears with age and there aren't many judges who will duck down to look at what is on the belly. 

I have heard that crown on the head called something, but can't remember right now what it was.  I have seen a puppy here in the US with it and it was sold as a pet.  I have seen dogs shown with a ridge down the middle of the skull but not with a crown on the head.  I think I wouldn't want to waste my money trying to finish a puppy with this.  Too many puppies around that are easier to finish and these days economics play a big part of every decision. 

Laid back doesn't necessarily mean aloof.  If you spend time with the puppy you will bond together, don't worry.  He may be aloof with strangers, but not with you who feed and love him and give him all the attention he desires.  I tend to go for the laid back puppies, but I think it depends very much on your lifestyle.

It's hard to help you with a choice, but I think if you want just a pet, you should go with your gut feeling, but if you want to show, then many other factors have to be considered, and you would need to send stacked photos for us to help you.

Caroline

[Santiago Mejia]

Im going to start off by saying  im biased because i love livernosed lol and also by saying im totally new so my opinion is totally unexperienced. Im triying to find a breeder down here myself lol. If they are too young, their personality may be different in a future visit, (as someone said before they may be tired etc...) so try and get a couple more visits. Again as someone else said showing is a huge commitment but if youŽr doing it just for fun, the little extra white or the "ridge" in the head may not be such an issue, even though they have this small "defects" (dont like this word lol) they are very beautiful dogs and an SA judge has already sorted them out as show puppies so the "defects" cant be too bad lol. Just my 2 cents im sure youŽll be happy with any one of them you chose.

Santiago

P.S. more pics plz! lol

[melissap]

Don't worry about the white on the belly that mostly disappears with age and there aren't many judges who will duck down to look at what is on the belly. 

Caroline

I agree about the white on the belly and forechest as that is a far less concerning issue than a crown on the head being sold as show potential.

The US standard says (and I beleive FCI as well) "excessive" white which is above the wrist on a leg - a splash on the chest and or gazely stripe down the belly would NOT be an issue.

 Multiple crowns more than 2 (and I assume extra crowns on the head) are not acceptable in FCI or AKC. The Ridge having 2 symetrical crowns at the wither and should run the length of the spine to the hips.
 

Mika, (Caro #2) if you have a companion and you are looking for a show dog, it may be worth a talk with the breeder about your goal for this next pup and chat with them about getting a pup that is of the highest standards to begin showing and a potential line with.

Have you asked this breeder directly IF you and the pup you purchase is not finished, how the dog would be used in a future breeding program?

I beleive IF that is your goal, it may be time for a heart to heart about picking the pup that has a great potential for finishing it's CH title and basing that on some stacked pics to evaluate structure, movement and overall picking a pup that represents the best to offer you in breed type (excluding a white chest) but inclusive of talking with them about a pup with an extra crown on the top of the head being potentially more difficult to finish in your area.

If your goal is to have a great companion that you may be able to get your toes wet in the conformation world with for the love of the breed, I suggest you are open with your breeder about those goals as well.

I hope that makes sense 

Melissa

[Mika]

Hi all

Thank you so much for your replies! I was told yesterday afternoon that the livernosed boy was sold. I did query the crown and the fact that they were being sold as show potential pups. I was told their mentor sorted the pups into show and pet and therefore the puppy was a show potential puppy. The lady in question is well known locally and internationally and has bred and shown numerous champions. I asked them to get her opinion on the crown but have not heard back from them yet.

Which is just as well I went to look at the litter that my ex bred. He has the two ridgies we bought together. The female we bought from Danntrig Ridgeback's in Gauteng (although she was originally bred in Zimbabwe) and the male we bought from Laurie Venter from Glenaholm. Both dogs are obviously very close to my heart as I raised them. Anyway, the puppies are KUSA registered and I chose a male. The puppies from the other litter were just too expensive with too many questions. So here's my new boy







(Maybe don't say anything about him being on the bed  )

I found the comment about not getting involved in showing if you don't intend on doing it competitively interesting. I understand from the expense side, but wonder if it's still applicable in SA? Sarah do you show? Do you know? I also wonder how anyone starts if you don't try it first?
Well my new pup I bought with my heart and he hasn't been specifically bred for showing. So who knows what he will turn out like Maybe I'll finally buy that show pup with my next dog

[RhodieMom]

He is just adorable!!!
Now I want another one for myself.... THANKS! 


Marion

[melissap]

Wow, You move Fast Caro. I am surprised that with your ex having a litter out of your own dogs you raised, on the ground and a pup ready to go home ASAP, at a price that suited your needs, that you would even asked what advice the forum may have regarding pups.

Seems like a no brainer!

Melissa

[Mika]

Hi Melissa

It's always hard when reading the written word to fully grasp the tone of the intended message. My initial reaction was to feel offended, but perhaps I am oversensitive.

I have been contemplating for a while getting another puppy as my GSD has HD and will have to be pts very soon. The litter I went to look at yesterday were 10 weeks old and had been advertised for ages. I emailed about them over the weekend not thinking they would still be available and was rather surprised to hear they still had 5 pups for sale. So I went to look at them yesterday. If you read my intro you will see I have had the wish of buying a puppy that I could show with for some time.

Anyway, I was aware of my ex's litter as the bitch is still registered in my name and he had to transfer her into his name to have the puppies registered.

Because my plan was to buy a show potential puppy I didn't ask to buy a puppy. But three of the potential purchasers pulled out and I saw yesterday he readvertised them. The rest of the litter went to homes over the weekend already. So I went to look and came home with a puppy I'm also on leave for two weeks so the timing is great

Sometimes things just work out that way

[melissap]

Yes, I would say a little sensative.
No way "I" would sign off on a litter from a line I owned, knew and wanted a puppy from, to go out and look with out 1st having strong dialogue about getting a pup back out of that breeding if they were a nice litter.


One would think, if you wanted one, other buyers could stand in line.
JMO

BTW: You kind of indicate you were also looking at pets and yet were drawn to these two - with a mild interest in showing & quetions about wether they could be bred if not shown, so I am working with the post you have here.



Melissa

[Mika]

I'm not sure I understand your post. Perhaps I didn't word my first post correctly? I specifically went to look at the first litter because they are very well bred with showing lines. I absolutely had the agreement with my ex that I could have a puppy if he had a litter. But he is a first time breeder, and although both dogs are very nice (well I obviously think so ) they may not necessarily produce good pups. Who knows? Which is why I originally chose not to look at the puppies. But the heart is a fickle thing And then he advertised due to three sales falling through

And btw, I didn't ask whether I should breed the original puppy. I asked if you could (ito breed standard). I guess if one wanted to breed you would buy a bitch?

[Keeper]

I've been told that any crown not attached to the ridge is called an Angel Kiss.
According to several RRCUS (well-known) breeders this should not be a problem in showing.

That aside...IMO, if I purchase or sell a show potential dog - I expect that the puppy be within the Standard of the Breed.  

If you do not know what the Breed Standard is...check out the forum on this topic.
If you plan to show the puppy then YOU owe it to yourself to read and understand what it means in relationship to the puppy that YOU purchased.

You mentioned that the breeder is also a show judge - you need to discuss the Disqualifications, Undesirable Traits and Faults as they pertain to your puppy.  
You will be a novice at showing and as such, it will be a struggle to learn the correct way to showcase your dog in the ring.  Not a problem with the right training/mentoring...and working on this daily.  We all began as a Novice.

I wonder why you would consider breeding a dog who may have Disqualifications, Undesirable Traits and/or Faults.  Even ethical, excellent, longtime breeders strive to use the best possible dog for their breeding programs.

There is nothing at all wrong with choosing the puppy that tugs at your heart.
But while it isn't impossible, it isn't easy to compete as a new owner and having the best looking puppy in the ring can certainly be a plus.

If the breeder required a show contract they expect you to abide by that contract and the majority of breeders are willing to spend additional mentoring to assist their show buyers accomplish that.  

Each country has a breed standard...some are slightly different.
Each country has a 'style' that may vary in appearance.
Every country has their unique way of presenting a dog in the ring.
However, it's best to buy, or breed to the dogs that best fit the Standard.  JMO.

People who are new to show dogs, contracts, standards and breeding sometimes take offense to breeder contracts.  But there IS a reason, particularly if the breeder is selling to a novice, first timer.  Keep the line of communication open between you and your breeder - and really listen to them.  You may not agree with all they say 10 years from now...but if you listen - you will learn much to assist you along the way.

Good luck in all you plan to do...but most of all with your relationship with your puppy.
This is the beginning of a beautiful time that all too soon ends.

[Keeper]

....And btw, I didn't ask whether I should breed the original puppy. I asked if you could (ito breed standard). I guess if one wanted to breed you would buy a bitch?

Mika, perhaps I didn't understand your post either.
But I still think this is putting the cart before the horse so to speak.
Certainly, you would want to Choose the BEST dog that Fits YOUR lifestyle.
If your life, including home, time and finances can provide for the potential of breeding a future litter, then IMO I would purchase the BEST bitch I could. 

Finding a stud dog should be the last thing on your list. 
Health care, training, showing and testing for hips, elbows, thyroid, eyes and even cardiac should be done prior to choosing the sire.  Its not to say that you can't be researching - but UNLESS your bitch passes the above tests...you shouldn't even consider breeding. 

I understand that your country doesn't even do many of the above tests.  Let me tell you from experience that imports that I have purchased puppies from had some health/genetic problems.
Sad, since I purchased from the oldest kennel in the (unnamed) country.  Both bitches were never bred and spay.  The breeder(s) did not offer refund or replacement puppy. 

This is why you need to be financially able to absorb the costs of showing and testing - never thinking that you will be able to 'recoup' the costs.  And then begin again. 

[Mika]

Thank you for the informative post!

Just to clarify, the breeder is not a show judge. The mating however was arranged by a very well known breeder and someone who has excelled in showing. I have read the standard many times I have just never seen the whorl on the head, which is why I asked. I was also concerned about the white on the belly of the one pup as I know the standard says excessive white is undesirable. So I was also querying it. The pups were graded as show or pet quality and they were priced accordingly. I did ask them to query the whorl on the head with their mentor (the breeder who graded the pups for them) but as I have mentioned, I haven't heard back from them. I did not however make an offer on the puppy as I was concerned about the whorl. But it's all pretty much moot now as I have my new bundle of joy

I would still like to do some conformation classes with my new pup as I think that is probably how you learn? I doubt he's an outstanding puppy but one has to start somewhere

Thanks for all your feedback.

[caro]

Your puppy is adorable and I am sure will give you a whole lot of pleasure.  I think that showing in South Africa may be more fun than it is in the US because there aren't as many professional handlers and it becomes more of a social occasion, sort of like it is in the UK.  I would wait and see how your puppy turns out.  Very often a puppy that is thought to be a show puppy doesn't turn out to be very good for one reason or another, and sometimes pets can be pretty darn good!  So, my interpretation of "show" is that at the time of "grading" or sale, the puppy has the POTENTIAL to become a show puppy.  Usually that means that it doesn't have obvious faults, like an extra crown, bad ridge, kinked tail, bad bite, etc.  Wait and see what happens with your puppy and if you just want to "test the water" enter one or two smaller shows and see what happens.  You probably would want to take a few handling classes ahead of time so you know what to do and you can always take more if you find it is something you really enjoy and want to continue.

Caroline

[Mika]

Thanks Caro He is quite a happy laid backed chap too. But one tends to forget how much work puppies are!

Ito the showing, I had sort of a similar idea. There is a club near me that teaches handling and does basic obedience. I was thinking it would be a fun thing to do with my dog as well as be good for socializing. We don't have lure coursing in SA as far as I know and I would love to learn more about structure and showing in general.

Anyway, will join the club and see what happens

[Keeper]

your willingness to try any sport including conformation is the key to keeping your relationship and his socialization and training moving forward.  

I just saw your Avatar...oooh those beautiful livers.  Sigh. My first love...and I see why he melted your heart.

[caro]

Good for you!  Defnitely join your local club and try whatever they have to offer.  It's a great way to meet people and to socialize your puppy.  I am all for trying whatever you can with your puppy.
Caroline

[melissap]

Mika,
Yes, after re-reading all the posts, I can see how this evolved as it did. Beleive me, I know how it feels to look and look and be headed 12 directions and yet no where all at once when looking for that pup that you just know in your gut you have to take.

I am glad you found him, and I also wish that your ex had given you 1st pic, but that is the way it goes when (forgive me for assuming) romantic relations change and life evolves.


I have never seen a pup with a whirl, but as I have been taught - seek the best you can fine and your pups lines are nice, and he is very cute.

Enjoy showing and performing wiht him as the bond formed regardless of the destination is a wonderful journey.

Melissa