How long did it take you to leash train?

[pamnelson]

We are starting to leash train our 5 month old. I've read all of the advice here in other posts but it's more of an uphill battle than I thought it would be. We've been doing daily walks in the morning for a about a week and there's absolutely no sign of things improving.  I know this is not a long time and these things take time. He does ok at times (walking on a loose leash) but will whip around my feet in a frenzy, jumping at me and biting at me every 15-20 steps. The behavior is really nuts...ears back, running in circles, pulling in every direction.  This morning he stopped in his tracks and then launched toward my shoulder.  It seems very clear that he's frustrated.  We keep the walks very short (a block or so). I change direction when he pulls and snap the collar. I give lots of praise when he's walking well but avoid treats because they seem to get him overstimulated.  What would be especially helpful is hope.  How long shoud I expect this to take?  I really want to be able to take him for walks in the morning and am willing to invest whatever it takes.  When he gets older, jogging with him would be fantastic.  Will he simply get better with persistence and age? He does much better after playing at the dog park but lots of exercise before a walk isn't really possible in the morning.  Anyway, I'd love to hear how this process went for you all!  Is this type of behavior normal?  Or do you think we have a bigger problem on our hands that will require outside help?
Pam

[Ari_RR]

My experience with Ari.
1 - jumping. It took 2 days to correct. Inside - every time he jumps on anyone, everyone leaves the room for  10-15 sec. Outside during walks - every time he jumps on me, the walk and the game stops, I become a tree, no movement, no eye contact, no talking to him, no reaction of any kind. When he comes down - we move on.

2 - stopping suddenly in the middle of the walk, changing directions - if there is a rabbit or a squirrel nearby, he will want to go after it. If we are walking through the woods - its always moving in different directions, to catch all the scents around.  In general - he's has gotten much better on the leash (he is 15 months), it took months and months of work, and will never be perfect. Every walk is rolling the dice, it's just we have nice calm walks much more often now. My personal take on this - he will not be the one to always stay by my side during the walk, he will be wondering around, sniffing and sticking his nose everywhere, and I am fine with that.

We take walks in town (people, cars, etc), and we take walks in the nature park. In town he stays by my side. On a trail in the park he would be all over the place. So I put him on a 30 ft training leash when we go to the park - this way he can do his thing (left, right, forward, backward, sniffing everything) without me having to do the same thing  . In all his excitement and sniffing and exploring, he rarely ventures beyond 30 ft, and when he does - a gentle pull and calling him back does the trick.

To be honest, none of this really bothers me. I like seeing him enjoying his walks, and if it's a "stop and go" kind, then so be it. We jog now too, which makes things better, but it's still usually a "stop and go", not at all steady moving in one direction at constant speed 

re dog parks....  At some point we had to switch things around (walk first to burn some energy off, then dog park). It depends on the dogs to some extend, but Ari can be a bit of a bully at the dog park, which in turn can provoke another dog to attack him. So usually we go for a 40 min to an hour walk, then dog park. Ari is a big, strong, adolescent bully, unneutered which doesn't help.
If we had a good playmate for Ari, I would just stop dog park visits. I don't want him to make other, more timid dogs uncomfortable, and don't want to risk one of those dogs reacting aggressively and attacking him.. But he needs socialization, so we go, and I watch him very closely ready to step in when things become a little too tense.  But, this is also getting better, perhaps he is starting to grow out of his "bully" stage?

Bottom line here for me - I gave up on the idea of nice walks in a straight line and steady speed, where the dog follows the human. I can have this during a city walk, but not in the nature park, which he enjoys the most.. And this is perfectly fine with me.   But what's so wrong with dog changing directions?? As someone said earlier - "whose walk is this anyway??"   

cheers
Eugene

[Safi]

Safi's jumping on me went away when I trained her to wait for her food .. a happy side affect I guess. The only other time she will jump and nip is when I engage her in play.. I make sure the play stops before she gets totally out of control. 

Safi is over the two year mark now and still will pull on her walks for maybe 30-40% of the time. Winter boots actually keep her from pulling and she trots like a little horse hehe .. I only use those when the salt is on the roads. Prey drive is usually the problem during walks.. I have her mostly trained to just sit and observe cats and squirrels now .. but rabbits are just a tease with the way they run when they know they have been spotted. If Safi has been pulling too much or seems over energetic, then I will make the effort to run with her for as long as a can (She did start to pace herself after a couple of weeks so I wasnt being pulled faster than I wanted to run)

Safi will stay very close to my side when walking *if* I have a treat in my pocket she really wants. I found these bison baked biscuits (wheat free) that she is very interested in. First time she has *ever* pawed my leg to get another one. She also retrieved my jacket the other night .. pulled it into the living room.. carefully pulled out all the papers in my pocket (not one ripped) and then pulled out the bag of treats which she half shredded to get every crumb

Someone mentioned the Sporn harness to stop pulling and I mean to get one and give it a shot. Offleash Safi stays within sight (unless she has to go use the bathroom or check out a chipmunk)

Every morning I see a couple with a Australian Sheppard jogging .. no leash.. the dog follows their every course change and I have yet to see it get distracted from the jog.. I wish.....


Steve

[efoley]

Hi Pam,

I remember those days of frenzied whirling biting puppy!! Cisko could be a real pain. Mind you he hated going for walks-- I always felt like the mean lady dragging her puppy along. What helped us was formal obedience training. Now Cisko is a real joy to walk about 95% of the time. He can still be stubborn and will dig his heels in or become reactive with unknown dogs on the walk (which admittedly we only come across once a month) but he's becoming quite a gentleman. Cisko is almost 2 and we have been going to training classes for over a year--first individual and now group.

Good luck. It will get better as long as you keep working at it.

Elena

[pamnelson]

Thanks for pulling me back from the ledge.     These stories help to put things in perspective.  It is true that the walk is mainly for him and a way for us to spend time together.  Eugene, you are right...there's nothing wrong with a dog that doesn't walk in a straight line all of the time.  I suppose if that were the idea, I should have gotten a robot dog.  This morning, I gave him a bit more slack (about 8 feet instead of about 4 feet) and let him go back and forth in front of me to sniff and explore.  Amazingly, he didn't pull at all!  I'm sure this isn't the end of the frenzied puppy and me looking like the crazy puppy lady (exactly as Elena described), but it gives me hope that I can be in control and he can have a nice time.  I think it was me making him crazy with constant commands of "come", "let's go", "no", "good boy", etc.  Maybe my frenzy of noise was driving him crazy. 

One thing I could really do without on the walk is the other dog owners messing up our mojo.  It's always the owner with the 400 year old lab who wants them to 'make friends.'  You probably know this person in your neighborhood too.  ARGH.  Nelson doesn't seem to get that the 400 year old lab doesn't want to play in the same way as a 5 month old puppy and the owner invariably seems shocked, even after I tell them that I think it's a bad idea because he is really young and full of energy.  We're still working on respecting our elders.   

Pam

[Safi]

Hi Pam .. It took Safi a while but she now respects the 400 year old golden on our road and the golden seems very appreciative while she gently wags her tail. However I am sure our neighbors hear the come/leave it/etc during my morning walks. I do have a great sense of satisfaction when I walk past one particular house and their black doodle has all four paws against the front bay window, barking for all he is worth while Safi just casually glances at him as we pass with no real reaction on her part.

Biggest problem on our morning walks these days is joggers (she wants to run with them) and shadow people .. she will growl pretty loud until she can identify them and then it is waggy tail and want to meet them. oh .. and of course the bunnies and the muslim guy who wants to be as far away from her as he can when he walks to the bus.

Dont worry .. 5 months .. You still have a way to go yet and then there is around month 12 when they apparently seem to forget all training and a month later everything is good again.

Steve

Oh .. can anyone enlighten me why she growls on morning walks with street lights going .. but not a peep when we are at the dog park after it gets dark and you can barely make out what is approaching you.

[Ari_RR]

Shadow people are the worst, that's for sure! But I sort of see the point in seeing a shadow approaching and putting on a bit of a warning show, growling, snarly face and all.. I would think the ideal case would be this:
- shadow is spotted! Let's growl and make a face, maybe it will go away, at least Dad will notice.
- Dad says "it's OK, Ari, it's OK"
- Ari hears that and becomes a wiggly butt instead of a snarly face again (this is the part where theory meets the reality, of course..  But we got the first 2 steps nailed down pretty good  )

Eugene

[caro]

I think it varies very much.  Misha was trained in a few days, but it sounds like your puppy is pretty strong willed.  You need to keep a pocketful of treats with you at all times and distract him when he misbehaves.  Make him work for the treat, but make sure he is focusing on the treat and not on what he is misbehaving over.  He should be trained by 5 months, so you are trying to do it at a time when he is testing his limits, so it could take a little longer than it would at 3 months.  I wouldn't worry too much about the pulling, provided he is out in front of you because you can always use a halter to control the pulling, but halters aren't much good if the puppy lags behind you or refuses to move.  Focus is what you need to work on.  He needs to focus on you and to achieve that you need super smelly treats and reward only when he does what you want.

Caroline

[Safi]

Hey Caroline,

   Speaking of strong willed puppies.. how do you deal with a two year old who will dig in her heals and spit out her favorite treats just because I am trying to leave the offleash dogpark with her? only time she does not is if she is dead tired/cold or its pouring rain. I have been trying to give her a treat right after she gets in the truck.. but getting her there has been fun at times.

Steve

[pamnelson]

Thanks Caroline.  I agree with your assessment...he is turning out to be strong-willed.  We started leash training when we got him at 3 months but stopped because it appeared to be too much for him.  He was completely out of control at times, biting & ripping at our clothes periodically throughout the walk and seemingly losing his mind.  In retrospect, I realize that we should have stuck with it rather than waiting until he got bigger to deal with this issue because we may have reinforced the idea that he is in charge on the walk.  So, we're back at it with a commitment to walk every day and get this right.  I will bring treats tomorrow and see how it goes.  When I was using treats before, it seemed to get him even more excited. So, I haven't tried to walk with treats since we first tried this at 3 months but he does seem to remember and go slightly into treat-crazy mode. When I say "Good job" on a walk now, he immediately looks for the treat with that wild look in his eyes.  I now give him a quick shoulder rub of praise instead, hoping that we can get out of the crazy-treat mindset.  I'll try to use treats tomorrow but intermittently to try to avoid his being too treat-focused.  Does this make sense?

Pam

[caro]

Yes, Pam, don't use treats all the time; intersperse them with praise, but always given calmly.  If he starts going crazy, then ignore him.  He has to earn praise and treats.  I am afraid he has got your number and it's going to take commitment on your part to establish that he can't do what he wants all the time.  Think of him like you would a spoilt child.  Always be firm but kind.  If he is really hyper, then I might use a herbal calming medicine like Rescue Remedy.  They take the edge off so you can get his attention without having to go through that awful, going crazy for a treat act.   I think the most important thing to remember is that he must earn all praise and reward.  Don't give in.  It's going to take a while, but persevere.  You will get there in the end.  At 5 months, you are not going to hurt him if he jumps on you and you use your knee to knock him off, or turn your back and shove him away.  He absolutely must learn that it is not acceptable to jump on humans.

Caroline

[pamnelson]

Great advice. Thank you. We will be working hard. It's interesting that in the past few days, after getting serious about the walk, his recall in the house is much better and he's been fantastic when we are eating. He goes to his spot and lays there until we are done without any reminders. Go figure.  I'll check back in with an update soon...

Pam

[NalaSA]

Hi Pam,

I think it was 3 weeks of pure frustration for me to teach Nala how to walk on a leash.  As a puppy she was the first dog I had that HATED going for walks.  At first she would just sit there and absolutely refuse to go anywhere.  Then when we got her going she would suddenly decide to go nuts on the leash by biting our ankles and feet, attacking the leash, jumping up - just being a real nuisance.  I had to work on it inside the house for a while before getting success outside.   We did heel, change of directions with a "Let's Go!" etc.  And even still back then I sometimes walked in fear she would suddenly launch into one of these puppy attacks out of nowhere (highly embarrassing).  Sometimes I would step on her leash so she couldn't jump up on me, or I would tie her to a post nearby and turn my back to ignore her until she was calm.  And I gave her lots of praise and treats if she went with me where I wanted in a nice fashion.  Finally she started to to get it.  This was really important to me as I'm only 90lbs and Nala could easily bowl me over if she wanted to.

Now, she's 15 months and she's very good on walks.  One thing that did help us a lot was using a harness instead of putting her leash on the collar.  For whatever reason, she prefers the harness.  She pretty much walks right beside me.  On rainy days she skulks a bit and tries to refuse her walks but I don't let her.   She sometimes pulls ahead if she gets excited and she is reactive to unknown dogs on leash (constantly working on this - she's fine off leash and highly friendly with her doggy friends at the beach, at daycare and in our home). 

I'm sure your RR will come around with practice and hard work.  i must say though, I sure don't miss those crazy puppy frenzy days!

[pamnelson]

So, we've been going for 3 walks a day for the past two weeks and things are going really well!  I must have looked like a complete nut case changing direction every 10 paces in the first week or so but it finally sunk it.  Nelson has been fantastic!  It was worth the frustration because I think he's got it.  Yesterday, the leash unclipped somehow.  It must not have been properly clipped when we left the house.  Since he had been walking on a loose leash, he didn't even notice!  I calmly called him back and he came (thank goodness because his recall generally stinks outside!).  Phew.  The only craziness we've had for the past few days is his running around like a maniac when he gets back inside.  He does two or three big circles at warp speed, ears back, like a complete nut and then settles down for a long nap. 

NalaSA, we are still working on getting too excited about seeing other people.  It's getting better slowly but will take some time for sure.  During our walks, we periodically practice a proper 'heel' and do this when we see people or other dogs.  I don't enforce 'heel' the whole time.  To me, the important thing is respect for the leash.  In any case, I can imagine that being petite makes these issues that much more important.  This whole idea of getting complete control on the leash was prompted by him nearly knocking me over when he jetted in an unpredictable direction on a walk.  Ugh.  It's embarrassing and scared the heck out of me because he's already 60 pounds at 5 months old.  Have you had any success with this?

Steve, did you get any feedback about recall at the dog park?  I've basically given up on the dog park for now.  Nelson loves it and is great with other dogs but without good recall, it makes it really difficult.  My husband usually takes him every day but he's been out of town.  I think he's a bit more relaxed about the recall because he tends to take Nelson for an hour and a half, so he's wiped out and ready to go when my husband is ready.  I took him on my own last week for 45 minutes and decided not to go back until his recall is better.  Although he enjoys it, it's a total free-for-all.  Anyway, recall and ringing a bell to go outside are at the top of the list now.  I'm going to start with a really long lead in a field, as other people have suggested, then increase distractions to see if we can get better at this. 

Pam

[efoley]

Hi Pam,

Sounds like you are making good progress. It's hard work but definitely worthwhile. I also noticed that demanding good manners while on the walk translated into better manners indoors (as in better stays and no more jumping up.) Additionally a structured walk with heels, sits, and stays will tire him out and continue to instill discipline. It can also give him something to focus on if he shows any leash reactiveness. Keep persevering!!!

Elena